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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I personally sat stunned in front of the tv with my head in my hands, unable to speak for at least 30 minutes. I was late for work that day because I couldnt move. I can only wish I could have reacted in 7 minutes if i were in his position.
    You're not the President of the United States. I wouldn't expect you to.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    I'd have to agree. I never bring this point up until someone starts bashing President Bush's actions but I say basically the same thing: How long did it take for you to move after you heard and saw what happened? 30 minutes is fast. I dont think I ate breakfast until after 10:30, and I was up at 7.45. What more could he have possible done in 7 minutes? That's 420 seconds. I probably spent that long typing this.
    I happened to turn on the tv to find the first tower already hit. It took me about 10 seconds. I immediately called my mother to find out if she knew about it. She didn't. I hurriedly got off the phone with her to call a friend of mine who lives in NY -couldn't get ahold of her, but turns out she was ok. All of this within the first minute of hearing. I was shock and stunned like everyone else (didn't know for sure at that point if it was terrorism, only the first tower had been hit.)

    I know of other people who reacted very quickly as well. Of course, they had loved ones in NY and that was the first thing on their mind. Cell phone towers had been taken out, so it was difficult to reach people who had already begun their day. When the second tower had been hit, I had already made my calls, and sat numbed like everyone else in front of the tv trying to understand what was happening.

    People I know who had friends and family in NY were very fast to act and make calls. They were desperate to know what was happening out there.

    I'm not speaking for our president...I haven't even seen the famous 7 minutes video, nor the movie.
  3. #63  
    People did react very quickly on UA flight 93 -they didn't storm the terrorists right away, but they reacted very fast and began making calls which eventually allowed them to piece together what was happening to them. Once they realized what was to be their fate, they took swift action.

    I feel as though I'm one of the few who has yet to see the Moore movie. I really don't think I can comment on it until I do.
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    #64  
    Not because I want to dwell on this, I'd rather see how people felt about the speeches last night, but what WOULD you have liked to see President Bush do... for those who think he didn't do enough in those 7 minutes. I forgot to mention I did call my family to see if they knew and how they were. Weren't they still gathering intelligence in those 7 minutes? Finding out how many planes were still unaccounted for? I assumed they weren't twittling their thumbs. I guess I missed the whole point of criticizing him during the moment
  5. #65  
    I think it's amazing how Sept 11 changed Americans perceptions of terrorism. How many of you knew or cared that Americans were funding the IRA via Noraid? The same IRA with good links to Libya...
    In my analysis Libya coming into the fold might have something to do with Bush but it's probably got more to do with Gaddafi being more scared of Islamic terrorism than Bush is. He's been driven from more than one side, and he's gone towards the one which will let him hang onto power longer.
    Animo et Fide
  6. #66  
    I should probably just stay out of this thread since I'm not able to vote in the U.S. since I'm originally from the U.K. But I do care about the outcome of the election because I think it would be a disaster for the world, or at the very least America's standing in the world if Bush gets another term.

    I love living in the U.S., but I have been amazed by the seemingly blind faith that many Americans seem to place in their leaders and how little the media seems to hold leaders to task. It's almost as if people think that it's somehow anti-american to question your leader's motives (even in the face of overwhelming evidence that your leaders have been up to a great deal of manipulation).
    Someone earlier in the thread suggested that it was just France and Germany who opposed the war in Iraq. Actually the majority of people in the U.K. also oppose it as do most people in the world outside the U.S.

    It's a pity that there isn't better international coverage in the media here or else more people would realize how much the image of the U.S. has been hurt in the last couple of years. It's quite shocking how different an emphasis you see on BBC America compared with some of the local channels.

    People also seem to have lost sight of what the purpose of this "war" was meant to be - to decrease terrorism. Statistics show that terrorism has increased since Bush came to office. People don't seem to be very good at thinking through Bush's strategy and whether it is indeed the strategy with the highest probability of success. No country no matter how great their resources or destructive their weapons will ever be able to kill all the people in the world who might bear enough of a grudge to want to commit a terrorist act. And in the process of attempting to kill, control, or imprison without trial all these potential terrorists, you just create many many more people who hate America enough to become a terrorist. Bush must be the best recruiting tool Al-Queida has ever had at their disposal!

    Bush's path is a completely no-win strategy, as the U.K. found after many years and many deaths in Northern Ireland. The only end to terrorism occurs when there no longer exists any motivations for people to become a terrorist.

    In Northern Ireland the ingredients that are starting to make that happen are:
    - A united front between all the countries involved (U.K. and Ireland)
    - Commitment to a peaceful political process
    - Economic prosperity for the people of Northern Ireland

    We didn't get anywhere by years of tactics similar to Bush's.
  7.    #67  
    so what would you recommend we do now that russia is being visited by some unfriendly al qaeda-associated terrorists?
    do you think the russians still disagree with our proactive approach?
    I would rather take a proactive stance on this war on muslim maniacs vs sitting back quietly and waiting for them to devastate us again.
    id rather have an economy to defend than no economy at all. did you see how much 9/11 affected our economy? do you think we want to risk waiting for a few more planes to contribute to our recovery?
    I wonder how your country would deal with this if they were in our shoes?
  8.    #68  
    metsfan, you like to refer back to the 9/11 attacks frequently.
    had the fighters been mobilized at the lightning speed that would have been required, and miraculously negotiated their positions fast enough to acquire a lock on the second jet and shot it down.............. where do you think all that wreckage would have landed?
    if there was any chance in hell of them getting there on time, they probably would have just made it there just as the plane was entering the manhattan area - thereby not giving them any strategic place in which they could have shot down that plane without causing mass death as a result of its crash somewhere else in the city.
    wow. its so easy to criticize bush on that one, but had you all the factors that had to be considered in front of you as bush had, would you have been able to set into motion any actions that would have resulted in an outcome much different than what happened? I VERY MUCH doubt it.
  9.    #69  
    now that russia and spain now have joined the ranks as "victims" of al qaeda terrorists, maybe others around the world might... just might.... begin to see that maybe the u.s is onto something here. maybe there is a good reason for being so aggressive in defending yourself, and not yielding yourself to the whims of savage, maniac philosophies. maybe putting the terrorists' hands on a hot, burning stove now and then may show them that their days of pushing the envelope now are definitively over.
  10. #70  
    Frankly, I don't like referring to September 11th. I was just responding to other things in the thread when I was talking about it... but since you asked:

    Cruise speed of a 767 is 530 mph. Yes, that's at 35000 feet, but I think we can assume it was going at least that fast. I can't find any information on how fast it was actually going. Manhattan Island is 13 miles long. That means it would cover the entire length of the island in only 88 seconds.

    Looking at the path the plane took, and a map of the surrounding area, it looks like it would have been in a relatively unpopulated area (40 miles north) just four and a half minutes before it hit. Shooting it down there would have been, at the very least, less damaging. There's no reason it had to go down in Manhattan.

    I'm not saying any of this would have been possible had Bush acted earlier, but it certainly wasn't given that he waited.

    Edit: Looking at this, it looks like most of the blame belongs on the shoulders of the FAA and NORAD. Still, there's no excuse for Bush not taking immediate action.
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    now that russia and spain now have joined the ranks as "victims" of al qaeda terrorists, maybe others around the world might... just might.... begin to see that maybe the u.s is onto something here. maybe there is a good reason for being so aggressive in defending yourself, and not yielding yourself to the whims of savage, maniac philosophies. maybe putting the terrorists' hands on a hot, burning stove now and then may show them that their days of pushing the envelope now are definitively over.
    Yeah, I'm sure Russia and Spain appreciate the efforts we've put into the war on terror. Lotta good it's done them.
    As Bush said, "America, and the world are safer."
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  12.    #72  
    as for bush being the best recruiter for al qaeda and his policies the motivation for people to become terrorists, I beg to differ.
    al qaeda terrorists' goal is a very simple one - ( to be expected from those as primitively barbaric as they are) - kill all infidels.
    if you do not believe in allah, you are to be killed or oppressed or maimed or tortured or whatever wonderful plans they have in store.
    I don't care if its bush or santa claus in office making up foreign policies - NOTHING you can do in this life can dissuade these degenerates from thinking in any other fashion. so that also equates to one conclusion - there is no empathizing with people like this, there is only eradication of people like this.
    it is a terrible shame that this is how we have to go about our lives today, but as cheney said," we didn't start this war, we didn't ask for it, but we will win it. and our terms are not negotiable."
  13.    #73  
    yeah, and sitting idly back and not doing anything is going to warm their terrorist hearts toward us too, right? unbelievable
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    yeah, and sitting idly back and not doing anything is going to warm their terrorist hearts toward us too, right? unbelievable
    Yeah, cause that's exactly what I said.
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  15.    #75  
    ridiculous little analogy. so let's see. you'd rather have kerry in there flip-flopping over what to do rather than bush taking 7 mins, am I right? kerry admitted to sitting in absolute shock for not 7 mins, metsfan........ but 45 minutes!!! stunned and unable to make a decision of any kind. he admitted this!
    and you think that's the kind of one-two punch we really need in there to get the job done oh so much better than bush, huh?
    that's really scary
  16. #76  
    Yeah, cause Bush has never flip-flopped. Yes, I realize that's hardly an unbiased source, but neither is the Bush campaign where all these flip flop talking points have come from that the media so gladly repeats for us.

    This flip-flop stuff is nonsense. Everyone changes their mind. There's nothing wrong with that.
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  17.    #77  
    sure, nothing wrong with changing your mind. but kerry changed his mind on some very serious issues... many of which involved protecting our military forces with the best equipment and fighter jets they could get.
    its one thing to change your mind now and again. it shows consideration of many factors vital to a situation. but kerry has changed his mind SO OFTEN and on such critical issues that it doesn't communicate consideration and deliberation, but glaring uncertainty of intent.
    an inability to stick with anything consistently. its as if he changes with the direction of the wind - and that's disturbing.
    again. changing your mind is understandable. changing your mind at his rate is just disturbing.
  18.    #78  
    in the mere seconds It took for you to make a phone call to someone, do this, do that, bush, as noted was paused for 7 mins.
    kerry was on pause for 45 mins!
    you could have made a ton of calls, did this, did that in the total amount of time kerry was frozen in shock! I really doubt he would have jumped into action the way you are expecting bush to have given kerry's pattern of deliberation before making decisions. anyway its getting late.
  19.    #79  
    one other thing. france is for all intents and purposes - anti-american politically. they have opposed just about all if not all us-led aggression in the war on terrorism.
    you would assume that because of their "peaceful" position towards iraq and muslims, that these terrorist might give frenchmen a pass in their country because they disagree with the "war-mongering emptyheaded" bush, right everyone? that as a sign of discriminating thought they'd forgo kidnapping frenchmen right? and that maybe if we had a president who had a different, sensitive approach more like france does, that we would be fighting the war that we are fighting because of this bush guy, right?
    ummmmm. absolutely not. dead wrong. they took those frenchmen, not caring what their political bent was, and are threatening them with grisely death just like they do with any " ugly american ".
    what does this tell you all? it doesn't matter who the hell you are. if they want you to die, they are going to terrorize you. doesn't matter how fair you try to be to all people.
    president bush identifies them for what they are and is a relentless defender of america - yielding to none. this is the type of leader we need if the world is to have any hope at all of evolving beyond this era of terrorism
  20. #80  
    OK, this is the last I'm going to talk about this. I don't know about those 45 minutes, but Kerry wasn't the President at the time. I don't know that he would have done better.

    My initial beef with the 7 minute thing was that sledgie was essentially letting the President slide on it, while not letting Kerry slide on accusations that records that have been around for 35 years are suddenly being challenged. It wasn't the seven minutes thing specifically (though it has since turned into that) but the fact that Bush was being accused of waiting too long, and that pissed sledgie off ("It's abominable that you ask why a man doesn't flinch when he knows the cameras are on him at probably the greatest terroristic attack on American soil"), but Kerry's being attacked for something that happened over 35 years ago, and the records have been there, and he feels it needs an explanation.

    Seems like attacks against Bush are bad for the Democrats and attacks against Kerry are, well, bad for the Democrats. Seems like a double standard.

    I don't give a (edit: oops... bad word) about the seven minutes. I was just playing devil's advocate when asked what could have been done.
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