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  1.    #1  
    Remember that Swift boat commander and his gang who were calling Kerry a liar? It was an active thread here earlier this month.

    Well, it turns out the Swift boat commander Larry Thurlow's actual military records contradict his version of events and supports Kerry's.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug18.html


    Just thought I would let you all know.

    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/19/2004 at 02:09 PM.
  2. Talldog's Avatar
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    #2  
    If you read that story carefully, you'll notice that it isn't nearly that cut and dried. Remember, one of the charges against Kerry is that he filed false after-action reports to puff up his record. I don't know which side is lying (and one side surely is, this is not fog of war stuff), this clearly shows why the media needs to vet these charges as thoroughly as they did with Bush's National Guard stuff. Kerry could clear up a lot of this stuff just by releasing all of his military records, which he has not done.

    And before you condemn those swift boat guys, remember they've already been proven correct about that Christmas in Cambodia story, which Kerry had originally said was "seared" into his brain.
    Talldog
  3. #3  
    talldog...you're on the ball!
  4. #4  
    For Immediate Release
    Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

    I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

    To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

    I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

    It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

    I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

    After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

    Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

    And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

    These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    If you read that story carefully, you'll notice that it isn't nearly that cut and dried. Remember, one of the charges against Kerry is that he filed false after-action reports to puff up his record. I don't know which side is lying
    Kerry was supposed to have filed a false report saying that he was under fire when he really wasn't, right?

    Well according to Thurlow's own bronze star citation, Kerry was under fire.

    So, if you believe the military records, who is lying Kerry or Thurlow?

    Now Thurlow says the military records are lying (thru Kerry). The web is being woven deeper and deeper......
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/19/2004 at 03:07 PM.
  6. #6  
    Jeez -

    Lets look at it this way -

    Here we have a man, who is from a well established family, who could have gotten out of going to Vietnam, but actually volunteered to go. Not only to go, but to serve commanding a friggin speedboat.

    On the other hand, you have a guy who NOONE CAN PROVE even showed up for duty at the Air National Guard.

    Are you kidding me? Are people really trying to compare Kerry's military career to Bush's?

    I dare anyone to consider Kerry a coward if they themselves have not gone to war.
    www.bubblespeed.com
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by DJOrient
    Jeez -
    Are you kidding me? Are people really trying to compare Kerry's military career to Bush's?
    Where are people trying to compare Kerry's career to Bush's?
  8. #8  
    I've served in the military. Think what you want about our candidates, I know Military records and citations are not gospel. They are written by imperfect people, sometimes with their own agenda.
  9. Talldog's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by DJOrient
    Are you kidding me? Are people really trying to compare Kerry's military career to Bush's?
    This has nothing to do with comparing Kerry's record with Bush's. The bottom line here is that Kerry himself has made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign. In fact, his entire campaign message can be boiled down to "vote for me because I'm a war hero". That makes his record fair game for scrutiny, especially when most of the people he served with oppose him. Apparently he doesn't feel that he can run on his 20 year record in the Senate.

    And by the way, Kerry did apply for a student deferment while he was at Yale, and it was turned down.
    Talldog
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    If you read that story carefully, you'll notice that it isn't nearly that cut and dried. Remember, one of the charges against Kerry is that he filed false after-action reports to puff up his record. I don't know which side is lying (and one side surely is, this is not fog of war stuff), this clearly shows why the media needs to vet these charges as thoroughly as they did with Bush's National Guard stuff. Kerry could clear up a lot of this stuff just by releasing all of his military records, which he has not done.

    And before you condemn those swift boat guys, remember they've already been proven correct about that Christmas in Cambodia story, which Kerry had originally said was "seared" into his brain.
    Which record(s) exactly has Kerry failed to release?
  11. #11  
    As if all this junk about Kerry is going to persuade me not to vote for him. Pftttttt
    Anyone is better than Bush. Even Aflac-Clyde
    Last edited by Oops; 08/19/2004 at 09:27 PM.
    You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing.
    -Michael Pritchard
  12. #12  
    Wah wah wah.

    You right wing guys are so blinded by the son of a thousand points of light, all you want to do is discredit Kerry rather than try to credit the genius-coke-snorter-turned-born-again.

    So you guys are telling me Kerry outright did not deserve all the medals/ribbons he was awarded?

    This is ridiculous. This is like saying "Kerry's not so smart - he only was a 4 day champion on Jeopardy." Well, at least Kerry made it to Jeopardy.
    www.bubblespeed.com
  13.    #13  
    Release of Kerry Medical Records Shows he Still Carries Shrapnel From Combat John Kerry has a piece of shrapnel in his left thigh from an injury he suffered in the Vietnam War, his doctor said Friday during a review of 36 pages of the Democratic presidential candidate's military medical records. ... Kerry got his first Purple Heart after he got shrapnel in his left arm above his elbow. Doyle said if the shrapnel had hit Kerry in the eye, it could have blinded him. And Doyle said Kerry's third Purple Heart came from a dangerous situation on March 13, 1969, that could have been life-threatening. A mine had exploded near Kerry's swiftboat and enemy snipers were shooting around his boat. According to notes from a military doctor who treated Kerry three hours later, Kerry was thrown against the bulkhead, resulting in contusions on his right forearm. ... Kerry also was wounded by a piece of shrapnel on Feb. 20, 1969, this time on his left thigh. Doctors decided to leave the shrapnel in place rather than make a wider opening to remove it. Doctors removed damaged tissue and the entry wound was closed with sutures, and no infection developed around the shrapnel, according to the records. (Pickler, Associated Press, 4/23/2004)

    Yeah, he must have put the shrapnel in his arm and leg himself just to puff up his war record......
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/19/2004 at 05:09 PM.
  14. Talldog's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    Which record(s) exactly has Kerry failed to release?
    Well, as an example, his first Purple Heart is controversial because his commanding officer refused to recommend him for it because the CO felt that the wound was a self-inflicted scratch, and supposedly Kerry went around the CO and recommended himself (that's the story, I'm not trying to editorialize). As far as I can tell, Kerry has still not released the full medical report or after-action report from that incident. If you check out his website, you will find those documents for his other two Purple Hearts, but not the first one. I would think that any objective person would find that a little odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJOrient
    You right wing guys are so blinded by the son of a thousand points of light, all you want to do is discredit Kerry rather than try to credit the genius-coke-snorter-turned-born-again.
    Do you have anything intelligent to say?
    Talldog
  15. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #15  
    "The bottom line here is that Kerry himself has made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign. In fact, his entire campaign message can be boiled down to "vote for me because I'm a war hero". That makes his record fair game for scrutiny, especially when most of the people he served with oppose him. Apparently he doesn't feel that he can run on his 20 year record in the Senate."

    Kerry hasn't made his military service the centerpiece of anything. If you listen to his acceptance nomination, which is 40 minutes long, he spends about three minutes on it, in context of the current war situation. The media hounded him for not being "personal" enough, and that the world had to "get to know John Kerry the man," so he talks about events in his past that may have some application to the present (war experience historically is a plus for the commander-in-chief of the armed forces), and people jump all over him again. He's in a no-win situation, over something that should be a feather in his cap. Typical.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  16. Talldog's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    Kerry hasn't made his military service the centerpiece of anything.
    Huh? Try googling that and look at what you find. And it's not just the right-wingers. The truth is, he can't open his mouth in public without talking about Vietnam and his "band of brothers".

    "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty!"

    C'mon.
    Talldog
  17. jalbert's Avatar
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    #17  
    Kerry's milatary records are all available on his web site. (I just printed out three purple heart awards and the documentations that goes along with them)

    Bush's records are not yet ALL available and he is not freely releasing the remaining which is why the Associated Press had to file a freedom of Information request in an attempt to obtain them. As recently as yesterday, those remaining files were not released through this request.

    I do not believe that Kerry put himself up for the Bronze Star, another veteran did, so to claim it was perhaps his "agenda" is disengenious. Regardless, it's pretty cut and dry what the requirements are for medals, so if he was approved (as were many other veterans), then he was approved under the same rules as all other veterans.

    The "Swift Boat Veterans" are misleading when they say they served with John Kerry. They were in the same war. That's not with him as they attempt to lead the viewers and readers to believe. Those on the actual boat support him, including a life long Republican.

    And finally, Christmas in Cambodia (*sounds like a song) has NOT been cleared up. It has been clearly shown that he could have been in both places as it was a 2 hour ride and there was a 5 hour discrepency.

    Getting and relying on information from Fox News is not a credible source. Same with Rush et al. Sorry.

    Finally, Let's really compare records. Why are there no veterans standing up to say they served in conflict or overseas with our president (or vice president for that matter in the Vietnam war)?

    How did George Bush jump the line to be admitted to the National Guard when there was a two month wait to avoid seeing action overseas by gaining admittance? A senator for a father perhaps?

    Some veterans may not like John Kerry because he protested what he saw in Vietnam. They absolutely have that right. But not serving, or avoiding going overseas is either cowardice or is a form of protestation of what's happening as well. John Kerry volunteered to serve. That's ALOT more than can be said for George Bush or **** Cheney.

    Perhaps it's time to stop denigrating the candidates on this issue and get them in the ring to debate real issues.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    Well, as an example, his first Purple Heart is controversial because his commanding officer refused to recommend him for it because the CO felt that the wound was a self-inflicted scratch, and supposedly Kerry went around the CO and recommended himself (that's the story, I'm not trying to editorialize). As far as I can tell, Kerry has still not released the full medical report or after-action report from that incident. If you check out his website, you will find those documents for his other two Purple Hearts, but not the first one. I would think that any objective person would find that a little odd.

    I have looked at his website, Talldog, and all three purple hearts were there. There are extensive medical records there. They were all together as well. I posted a link on the previous thread regarding this.
  19. Talldog's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I have looked at his website, Talldog, and all three purple hearts were there.
    The purple heart citations are there, but the medical reports and after-action reports are only there for the last two. Look again.


    Quote Originally Posted by jalbert
    Kerry's milatary records are all available on his web site. (I just printed out three purple heart awards and the documentations that goes along with them)

    Bush's records are not yet ALL available and he is not freely releasing the remaining which is why the Associated Press had to file a freedom of Information request in an attempt to obtain them. As recently as yesterday, those remaining files were not released through this request.

    I do not believe that Kerry put himself up for the Bronze Star, another veteran did, so to claim it was perhaps his "agenda" is disengenious. Regardless, it's pretty cut and dry what the requirements are for medals, so if he was approved (as were many other veterans), then he was approved under the same rules as all other veterans.

    The "Swift Boat Veterans" are misleading when they say they served with John Kerry. They were in the same war. That's not with him as they attempt to lead the viewers and readers to believe. Those on the actual boat support him, including a life long Republican.

    And finally, Christmas in Cambodia (*sounds like a song) has NOT been cleared up. It has been clearly shown that he could have been in both places as it was a 2 hour ride and there was a 5 hour discrepency.

    Getting and relying on information from Fox News is not a credible source. Same with Rush et al. Sorry.

    Finally, Let's really compare records. Why are there no veterans standing up to say they served in conflict or overseas with our president (or vice president for that matter in the Vietnam war)?

    How did George Bush jump the line to be admitted to the National Guard when there was a two month wait to avoid seeing action overseas by gaining admittance? A senator for a father perhaps?

    Some veterans may not like John Kerry because he protested what he saw in Vietnam. They absolutely have that right. But not serving, or avoiding going overseas is either cowardice or is a form of protestation of what's happening as well. John Kerry volunteered to serve. That's ALOT more than can be said for George Bush or **** Cheney.

    Perhaps it's time to stop denigrating the candidates on this issue and get them in the ring to debate real issues.
    Several points:

    First, those are NOT all of Kerry's records. For instance, his complete medical records alone would cover every physical, every time he went to the infirmary, etc. And that's just medical records. What's up on Kerry's site is what the campaign has chosen to release. You can search the Internet and discover that Bush has indeed not released all of his records, but he HAS released over 300 pages, which is far more than what you'll find on Kerry's site

    I never said anything about Kerry's Bronze Star. As far as the Purple Hearts, as I've already said, I don't know who's lying. What I've said, if you care to pay attention, is that these charges are at least as serious as the charges that leading Democrats (Dean, Clark, and Kerry himself) made about Bush's National Guard service, and the media should give them the same scrutiny that they gave Bush.

    The swifties (forgive my shorthand) were more than "in the same war". They were Kerry's commanding officers, as well as other commanders and crewman from Coastal Division 11. And these boats did not go out alone. They went in groups, often only 20-30 feet apart. These guys were all present for the things that they're talking about, although you're correct that most were not on the same boat. But in the heat of battle or whatever, the guys on the next boat 20 feet away are often better witnesses.

    On the Christmas in Cambodia thing, you must have missed the memo. The Kerry campaign has already admitted that the swifties are correct on that.

    Thanks for the gratuitous smear re: Fox News and Rush (can a leftie actually argue without throwing insults? Just asking.). Not that you'd believe it anyway, but I don't listen to Rush, I have a job. Yes, I watch Fox, along with CNN, CNBC and MSNBC. In other words, I'm informed (and a news junkie). Fox News is no more biased to the right than the NY Times, Time Magazine and NPR are to the left.

    You make valid points re: Bush's record and the National Guard stuff, but here's the difference: Bush is not running on his guard service. He's the first to admit that he was a son of privilege who wasn't too serious in his younger days. Kerry is the one who has put his service front and center. I also find it somewhat ironic that the party of Clinton is now so obsessed about what Bush did during the war. And don't forget, the Dems went down the military service low road first this past spring with the willing assistance of the media. What goes around comes around.

    I guess in the end we agree on one thing. I'd like to see more on the issues, too.
    Talldog
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    Huh? Try googling that and look at what you find. And it's not just the right-wingers. The truth is, he can't open his mouth in public without talking about Vietnam and his "band of brothers".

    "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty!"

    C'mon.
    My goodness. Enough. Kerry served your country. He defended you and me and our children. Nit-picking and drooling over hysteria is a shamble. President Bush isn't my choice, but I am not going to nit-pick-drool over his life-long achievements. There are far more important issues to contend with then find a diddle in a haystack.
    You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing.
    -Michael Pritchard
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