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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    now TKit...like you've said to me before "children...play nice"
    pardon my sarcasm, a mod is only human too after all..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    pardon my sarcasm, a mod is only human too after all..

    Hmmm...you guys arent robots??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #163  
    Game over, insert new coin
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I guess what I dont understand is how does what a person does in a four month period, over thirty years ago, outweigh their more recent accomplishments, and qualify them to be president.
    It shouldn't. If he hadn't made his Vietnam service the main theme of his convention, perhaps we would not be having the controversy we are seeing today. I certainly would not be as upset as I am today.


    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I dont understand how Kerry's military record is even relevant to any issues that surround this election. It's like a smoke screen.
    The only reason it has become relevant is that John Kerry made it relevent.
  5. #165  
    John,

    Thanks for sharing your story.

    Semper Fi.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    However, and with the outmost respect to you, I will be voting for John Kerry.
    And I respect your choice. I just want you and others to understand why vets like me are saying the things we are saying. Too many are attacking the messengers and dismissing us by trying to paint the Swift Boat Vets as nothing more than pawns of the Bush campaign.
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    And I respect your choice. I just want you and others to understand why vets like me are saying the things we are saying. Too many are attacking the messengers and dismissing us by trying to paint the Swift Boat Vets as nothing more than pawns of the Bush campaign.
    Many of the people involved in the SwiftBoat situation have been proven to be associated with the Bush camp. They'd be much more credible if they didn't have those ties, IMHO. The way it stands now, it appears to be nothing but a Rove-engineered smear campaign.

    (I already posted a link to this graphic, but for argument's sake, I am posting it again):

    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...wift_graph.gif

    I am a Vet and I work with Vets. I will also be voting for John Kerry. I have seen the cuts made to Veteran's Admin services by the Bush Administration (especially MEDICAL), and it is going to get worse when all the people deployed to Iraq start coming home.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    It shouldn't. If he hadn't made his Vietnam service the main theme of his convention, perhaps we would not be having the controversy we are seeing today. I certainly would not be as upset as I am today.

    The only reason it has become relevant is that John Kerry made it relevent.
    Is this true? I heard that he only mentioned his vietnam past briefly in a pretty long speech..

    On his website http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/ his vietnam is 1 paragraph out of six, also there is one about him being a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which I consider a political thing not a military one.. that he mentions his dad was a WWII vet strikes me as a bit odd though, irelevant imho..
    Though I can understand him mentioning his tour of duty (especially since bush used his connections to get out of it) he put it on the 3rd place in the 'learn more about JK' section...
    In my impression it is an important part of his campain, but not the most important one.. but then again we dont get all the ads you guys do..

    BTW Bush mentions his military carreer too on his web site.. http://www.georgewbush.com/Bios/GeorgeWBush.aspx
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    I don’t know how old any of you guys are or if any of you were around or paid attention to what was going on during the late 60’s and early 70s. Perhaps you might like to hear directly from someone who was and feels some connection to the Swift Boat vets and their passion.

    I am nearing 60 years old and in January 1968 was beginning my first tour as a Naval Officer which, unbeknownst to me at the time, would last 23 years.
    Thanks for your post, johnbdh, it showed me some new insights.

    Even if Kerry went to Vietnam to further his political ambitions, even if his claims for some of his decorations were a bit shaky, it is clear that Kerry did risk his life in Vietnam, by going there and by being on his boat.
    Now compare that to the other presidential candidate: we know for sure he used the influence of his family to get him into a safe position, despite a test that showed how unfit he was for that position (24 points out of 100, if I remember correctly). Shouldn't you feel more angry about Bush when it comes to comparing Bush and Kerry regarding Vietnam?

    What did you think about Karl Rove's campaign against McCain? Are you really willing to support people like Rove, and the methods they are using?
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. (Philip K. ****)
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    Many of the people involved in the SwiftBoat situation have been proven to be associated with the Bush camp. They'd be much more credible if they didn't have those ties, IMHO. The way it stands now, it appears to be nothing but a Rove-engineered smear campaign.
    I'm sorry but it really amazes me that anyone would be surprised or find it suspect that the majority of the funding for the Swift Boat Vets would come from individuals with ties to persons on the right side of the political aisle. Where else would you expect the Swift Boat vets to turn for funding? If you were to dig into the funding and associates for any organization on either side of the aisle, you would certainly find the same connections to the candidate that would most benifit from their activities. If you were starting an organization in support of Kerry where would you turn sor suport, a supporter of Bush?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    (I already posted a link to this graphic, but for argument's sake, I am posting it again)
    The connections tree says exactly what I would have expected. The Vietnam vets are supported by people who support George Bush. Who else would support them, Kerry supporters? Does that mean that the Bush campaign created the adds or encouraged the Swift Boat vets? Believe me the vets did not need any encouragement.

    As for the rest of the link...
    Elliott, Hoffman, and Lonsdale question Kerry's honesty and leadership. The prior quotes are taken out of context and circumstance and do not coment on his honesty or leadership. The excerpt from the record is a quote from a Fitness Report written by Elliott. The comments area of a fitness report is the last source one should use to support anything about an Officer. Unless you are unable to tie your shoes, to the untrained eye all fitreps make the Officer sound like the greatest thing since slice bread. Curiously the quote they provide cannot be found in any of his fitness reports. To be honest what is really in the fitreps for that period sound better than what they quoted. The fitrep supposedly quoted from is average at best ant the next one is significantly worse. I asked myself why, what happened in less than 4 months.

    Letson - the link says nothing of note. He was the corpsman that treated John Kerry and a Doctor signed the medical entry. Most of the entries in my medical record are signed by doctors, but I received treatment from a corpsman. What I would like to know is why hasn't John Kerry released his medical records. That would answer a lot of questions.

    Odell - This guy is the least credible of all th Swift Boat vets. I was dismayed that he directly questioned the awarding of John Kerry's Bronze Star. Big mistake on the Swift Boat vets part. He said she said which will never be resolved.

    All in all a very weak counter to the Vets add.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    I will also be voting for John Kerry. I have seen the cuts made to Veteran's Admin services by the Bush Administration (especially MEDICAL), and it is going to get worse when all the people deployed to Iraq start coming home.
    We all have our reasons for voting the way we do yours are as valid as mine.
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Is this true? I heard that he only mentioned his vietnam past briefly in a pretty long speech..
    He was transported to the convention in small boat ala a Swift Boat with some of his Swift Boat crew.

    He ran onto the stage at the convention with his "band of brothers" in tow.

    They then showed a video that documented his vietnam experience. That really bothered me. How many Vetnam vets have a video like that of their experience in Vietnam

    I watched the convention and his service in Vietnam was repeated often and loud at the expense of any substance as to platform and vision for the country. This was commented on often by reporters from all corners of the media. I think it was pretty much a consensus that his Vietnam service was the main theme of the convention.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Even if Kerry went to Vietnam to further his political ambitions, even if his claims for some of his decorations were a bit shaky, it is clear that Kerry did risk his life in Vietnam, by going there and by being on his boat.
    Now compare that to the other presidential candidate: we know for sure he used the influence of his family to get him into a safe position, despite a test that showed how unfit he was for that position (24 points out of 100, if I remember correctly). Shouldn't you feel more angry about Bush when it comes to comparing Bush and Kerry regarding Vietnam?
    You bring up an interesting argument that is often raised when comparing candidates nowadays as most are of the age to have been faced with the real possibility of going to Vietnam. The same arguments were used against President Clinton. Whenever I hear this argument I think that either the person posing the arguement is too young to know or is being dishonest about that time in our nations history.

    Believe me, no one "volunteered" to join the military. Oh sure there were the few gung ho guys who thought they were invincible but they were few and far between. Remember we had a draft. The first thing you did when you got out of high school was to figure out what kind of deferment you could swing. Most went to College. Some had physical ailments that would get them a deferment. For a while you would not be drafted if you were married. Can't tell you how many of my friends got married right out of high school for no other reason than to avoid the draft. A few ran off to Canada. That was frowned on by most of us but we respected their decision. For those of us who went to college, this problem hit us again 4 years later for some perpetual students longer. Now the military was unavoidable. If you got drafted your choices once you got in were limited, so most of us "volunteered". I went Navy as I wanted to fly and the Air Force would not take you as a pilot if your were married. Others, smartly, found ways into the Coast Gaurd and the National Gaurd.

    Anyway, we all had a motive in our choices. No one looked down on the others choice or fortune. Very few of us truly "volunteered". If there were another choice we would have taken it. So to say that John Kerry "volunteered" is I think less than accurate. If truth be know we were all draft dodgers.

    It looks like he did volunteer to be assigned to Swift Boats. The published record is not exactly clear on that, but I would have loved to be a fly on the wall the day he got those orders. After we were committted to our service many of us found our macho selfs and we asked for what looked to be exciting or fun. Swift Boats certainly filled that bill. At the time John Kerry volunteered the Swift Boat missions had not been as dangerous as they became after he got there.

    Bush made a smart move by joining the National Gaurd. I don't care how he got it. Any of us given that option would have taken it. Serving in the National Gaurd is just as honorable as any other branch of the service.

    Now I do not know why Bush has that gap in his service. Manipulating the system is what soldiers do and I suspect that GW found a way to do just that so he could do the campaigning he did during that time.

    John Kerry manipulated the system to get out of Vietnam. I don't hold that against Kerry any more than I do whatever GW did to skip out of drills. At the time I would have said more power to them. The difference is that GW did not offer his military service as reason to vote for him and never used his military service as a basis to provide aid and comfort to the enemy. If you think that is a harsh statement, you just need to ask the Vietnamese leadership today what they thought of John Kerry during the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    we know for sure he used the influence of his family to get him into a safe position, despite a test that showed how unfit he was for that position (24 points out of 100, if I remember correctly)
    Everyone in those days was seeking the safest position they could get including me, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, **** Cheney, George Bush, etc,. (There are exceptions to this rule. Read John McCains book Faith of My Fathers for an example of several such exceptions.) I do not think anyone has a right today to question any of our choices 30 year ago.

    What test are you referring to? Could you point me to your source for this claim? Thanks.

    John
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What did you think about Karl Rove's campaign against McCain? Are you really willing to support people like Rove, and the methods they are using?
    I am not supporting Rove. I never mentioned Rove. I am supporting the Swift Boat vets. If Rove contributed big time to the Vets, thank you Mr. Rove.

    What was done to McCain was wrong. I beleive it was conceived and produced directly by Mr. Roe. It was not a grassroots effort by 250 Vietnam veterans. If Rove contributed to the McCain adds, shame on you Mr. Rove.

    Money is money and I see nothing wrong with the vets getting a contribution from Mr. Roe. I do not believe he started nor do I believe he participates or dictates what the vets are doing.

    Supporters of both parties are guilty of the kind of methods you are referring to. For the last 4 years I have seen nothing but these kinds of "methods" being used by the likes of MoveOn.org, Hollywood, books etc. During all of it neither the Bush Administration, his campaign, nor the Republican Party ever attempted to stop what they were doing.

    While I do not believe the The Swift Boat Vet's add fit in this category, it is the first add from someone opposed to Kerry's presidency that could be accused of using these "methods". And the whole world has been called to a halt by the Kerry folks. Legal letters are sent to stations suggesting that they not broadcast the add, publishers are pessured to not publish the book, and a request is made to whoever governs the campaign to pull the adds because they are unfair.
  14. #174  
    Sorry for the mispelling of Mr. Rove's name.
  15. #175  
    Nice to hear from someone who knows a little about the Vietnam war and military service from experience rather than ad campaigns - particularly the comments about 'draft' vs 'volunteering'.
    Military service doesn't seem at all relevant to me when considering how well someone will, eg, run the economy, or even how they will perform as commander in chief. It certainly doesn't affect how well he will perform diplomatically. Obviously as a European the major way I perceive the US is through your foreign policy, under Bush it stinks. For that reason I'd rather see Kerry in the White House, but it isn't my really call, so I'm staying out of this argument.
    Animo et Fide
  16. #176  
    John, I think you have a point there...
    But regardless of the vietnam issue (which was never a big thing to me anyway) I believe Kerry is the lesser evil...
    for one thing I like his approach on foreign affairs (what was the slogan? 'respected internationally'?) and his healthcare plans..
    Besides that I trust him more than Bush (gut feeling no hard proof)
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  17. #177  
    I sit quietly in awe and respect of Johnbdh. Thank you for taking time to share.
    There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
    Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    John, I think you have a point there...
    But regardless of the vietnam issue (which was never a big thing to me anyway) I believe Kerry is the lesser evil...
    for one thing I like his approach on foreign affairs (what was the slogan? 'respected internationally'?) and his healthcare plans..
    Besides that I trust him more than Bush (gut feeling no hard proof)

    I for one consider America lucky that you will not be voting.
    There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
    Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    What test are you referring to? Could you point me to your source for this claim? Thanks.

    John
    The only direct link to Bush's aptitude test I found is this. There are many sources that quote the results: "Bush was accepted for pilot training after having scored only 25 percent on the pilot's aptitude test, the lowest acceptable grade" (Washington Post), so he reached only 25% out of 100% and was admitted nevertheless despite a long waiting list. The whole AWOL story is also covered in depth on various internet sites (e.g. www.awolbush.com). To say the least, there is no way Bush can prove he was where he should have been.
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. (Philip K. ****)
  20. #180  
    Another perspective on Kerry's "record".

    http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/...0408230833.asp
    There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
    Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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