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  1. #141  
    Architect, very well said.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2.    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Never said this "I don't use it, therefore I don't need to pay for it."

    Don't really like being called stupid either, nor do I appreciate the "I am trying to help you" statement. Talk about acting superior.
    I meant your comments were stupid, not you.

    "Trying to help" comment was because I have been working for ten years in biomedical research, I was trying to help provide information that would be useful in the discussion, you are overblowing things.

    I think you unwittingly insult other people yourself, like me for instance.
    In a previous post you were telling me I was paranoid, accused me of being a pot smoker, said I had world domination delusions, all without any foundation at all. If you noticed, I let it slide.

    So I will try to be civil here, and I meant no disrespect to you personally, although I think your views leave something to be desired.

    Getting back to the discussion:
    You actually did say something like the above "If people WANT to fund research let them, dont force them" for all practical purposes it has the same effect as the quote above.

    Getting back to the issue of the thread:

    The Swift boaters have been shown to be facually inaccurate (lie)
    http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231
    By the way, in case it was not completely obvious - they are supported by the Bush campaign:
    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images...swift_graph.gif
    and they have already been renounced by our leading decorated republican war hero
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612836

    I think in total, this Swift boat thing adds up to sleazy politics
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/22/2004 at 07:19 PM.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I meant your comments were stupid, not you.
    Hahaha, Lets look at that quote just a bit closer eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    it infuriates me when stupid people say such things.
    I think the red helps dont you? Clearly this statement using plain english does not mean, nor will it very likely be interpreted to mean, that the comments were stupid and not the poster.

    I have never ever confused people with comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    In a previous post you were telling me I was paranoid, accused me of being a pot smoker, said I had world domination delusions, all without any foundation at all. If you noticed, I let it slide.
    Totally different thread, but ok. And what I did was ask you if you had smoked a lot pot when you were younger, because pot alllegedly makes you paranoid and you were sounding pretty paranoid about the idea that Jerry Falwell was going to start a conservative law school. Here's the quote. Please point out the part where I accuse you of being a pot smoker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    smoke alot of pot when you were a kid? Kinda paranoid.

    I think you worry too much. What other conspiracy theories are you worried about? Keeping an eye on the Trust or the Illuminati too?

    What religious leader doesnt have an agenda to convert people? Any Muslim cleric has the same agenda. You gonna freak when some rich Muslim wants to open a college?

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Getting back to the discussion:
    You actually did say something like the above "If people WANT to fund research let them, dont force them" for all practical purposes it has the same effect as the quote above.
    The aforementioned quote above:
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    NIH funded biomedical research is one of the best investments we can make in our society. For someone to say, we should let the private sector pay for research or I don't need to pay for research if I feel like it.... that is just plain ignorant! That is such a short sighted comment, it infuriates me when stupid people say such things.

    As a biomedical researcher myself, I see firsthand the growing roles of political action groups (left or right) in our govenrment who feel the need to manipulate research funding to suit their own idealology or shortsighted vision of priorities. There is an excellent system in place called peer scientific review. It is one of the best things we have going in science, and is a major reason for our current advances. There is no need to change it!
    So of course because you think biomed research is a great idea (not arguing that point) funding should be mandatory. Everyone should be made to donate a portion of their income to biomed research because cellmatrix says so.

    I sell insurance. There are a lot of people that need insurance of various types, but for whatever reason dont have it or dont want it. Should we pass legislation forcing people to have insurance? Make my job easier yes, but it wont guarantee people will have it. I know of lots of uninsured motorists out there even though I think all states have mandatory liability laws. If there were none why would we have the uninsured motorist option on our auto policies?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #144  
    I don’t know how old any of you guys are or if any of you were around or paid attention to what was going on during the late 60’s and early 70s. Perhaps you might like to hear directly from someone who was and feels some connection to the Swift Boat vets and their passion.

    I am nearing 60 years old and in January 1968 was beginning my first tour as a Naval Officer which, unbeknownst to me at the time, would last 23 years. Flying in and out of Vietnam for 5 years, I never saw combat. I worked with many who did, however, and the topic of the war and the war protesters was often on our minds and a topic of conversation. At the time I was often angry at what I saw to be aid and abetting of the enemy, but I also respected the protestors for their commitment to their cause. My anger went over the edge however when I saw John Kerry testify before Congress. I remember the **** Cavett debate. What I remember the most was John Kerry’s arrogance.

    Now I say I “remember” John Kerry. Actually those memories did not return to me until the first time I saw a John Kerry campaign add that showed a clip of his Congressional testimony. Up to that point I was considering Kerry for my vote as I always give all candidates a chance to win my vote. After realizing who he was I did some digging. What is interesting to me is it was John Kerry himself who made me question his Vietnam service. What started me digging was the realization that he only served 4 months in country. Why, I asked myself. I did not know this back in the 70s and it made that image of him back then even more infuriating. After reading all of what was published of his official records it became apparent to me that John Kerry started running for Congress before he started that tour with the Swift Boats possibly even before he joined the Navy while in College. The Admiral who wrote his final fitness report stated that as the reason he was being granted his release from the Navy.

    What I am about to say may sound contradictory, so read it carefully. The Swift Boat Vets are wrong to question his medals. All combat decorations are subjective and depend on the opinion of others. Some are awarded unjustly and some who deserve them never get one. To dispute them is always a he said she said mess. To me the Silver and Bronze star awards are off the table and should never have been there in the first place. And by the way you cannot use the citations themselves as proof of what happened, of course they will say the recipient was a hero… what would you expect them to say.

    Purple Hearts are not quite the same. Very objective, you bleed, you get a Purple Heart. John Kerry used 3 Purple Hearts to get him out of combat and his commitment. Few of us knew about this way out and fewer still took advantage of it. I sure never heard of it. After studying his records and reading various accounts of the circumstances surrounding his Purple Hearts, I am convinced that he earned those Purple Hearts, but at least one was by the loosest interpretation of the rules. There are not many Naval Officers who would use a minor injury to actively pursue his release from combat duty. Shades of Klinger in Mash.

    Even then, in the days before the convention I was willing to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt. He had served the country well since Vietnam. I wasn’t going to vote for him, but I didn’t think it would be terribly different if he won the Presidency and what he did 30+years ago should not be an issue. When, however, I saw him sail (literally) into the convention with his “band of brothers”, however, I was appalled. It infuriated me to see this man who insulted all of the rest of us who saw our commitments through to the end stand there and use his questionable career as a basis for his candidacy.

    My anger has not subsided and I have become a vocal critic of John Kerry. I would not vote for him if he were my only choice and I take every chance I get to tell others why I feel this way.

    Now I am not a member of the Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth group, but I understand how they feel. There are 250 SWBVFT guys who feel exactly the way I do and I can almost guarantee you that like me, no one solicited their opinions and testimony as the Kerry folks are trying to say now.

    Continued….
  5. #145  
    If you read the first part of this post, you know what side I am on here. Even so I am an experienced Naval Officer who lived the times, know how to read the record and obviously have vocal opinions.

    If any of you are interested and would like my take on things. Feel free to ask. Reading many comments here and elsewhere it is my opinion that many of you are being misled by interpretations of the record and the times that are simply wrong often because of a lack of understanding of how the Navy works. Having “been there” I think I can set the record straight or at least offer you food for thought in several areas like

    Volunteering for military duty in the 60s.
    John Kerry’s fitness reports (good or bad)
    John Kerry’s boat crew supports him, end of story, right?

    If you would like me to comment on these topics or anything else you want to discuss about the Navy as it pertains to the Kerry record in Vietnam, feel free to ask.


    John
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    If you would like me to comment on these topics or anything else you want to discuss about the Navy as it pertains to the Kerry record in Vietnam, feel free to ask. John
    Hi Johnboy...thank you for the post. Im not old enough to know about any of this. For me it is just things in the history books, and I dont really know anything about how the Navy or the military works.

    I guess what I dont understand is how does what a person does in a four month period, over thirty years ago, outweigh their more recent accomplishments, and qualify them to be president. I dont understand how Kerry's military record is even relevant to any issues that surround this election. It's like a smoke screen.

    What about the "seared in my brain" trip to Cambodia. Call me interested.

    Thanks
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #147  
    John, thanks for your service. Very much enjoyed your posts. Between yours and Architects, I dont think there is any good reason to vote for Kerry.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  8.    #148  
    Woof, you are probably pretty young right now, but when you are older you are going to get sick, and biomedicine is probably going to help you, or maybe a family member. For you to just blow it off shows how little you think about things before you spout off.

    whats this donate a portion of your income stuff---- You should be grateful for what modern medicine has given you and your family.

    Is it that you feel you are entitled to the benefits but are too selfish to pay for them?

    I think that might be your basic philosophy here
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/22/2004 at 11:26 PM.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    John, thanks for your service. Very much enjoyed your posts. Between yours and Architects, I dont think there is any good reason to vote for Kerry.
    I'm not a big fan of Kerry, but I do see 1 reason: he cant be worse then Bush.. I know this is a **** poor reason, but like last election it is the choose the lesser evil all over again

    <addition:>
    The sad part is that that situation isnt unique for the US, Australia is in the same position.. and Holland isnt much better (but at least they have a multi party system which should improve the chances of a good candidate..)
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Woof, you are probably pretty young right now, but when you are older you are going to get sick, and biomedicine is probably going to help you, or maybe a family member. For you to just blow it off shows how little you think about things before you spout off.
    well how young am I mr biomed? I am going to get sick huh? Clairvoyant too are you? What thehell am I blowing off?

    whats this donate a portion of your income stuff---- You should be grateful for what modern medicine has given you and your family.
    I would think you would be smart enough to figure what I meant when i said donate a portion. I was referring to TAXES. You know the taxes we will have to pay when you get all your fedral funding for stem cell research. Or were you not aware that thats where federal funds come from?


    Is it that you feel you are entitled to the benefits but are too selfish to pay for them?
    Entitled? Spare me. I pay my health insurance premiums every month. I have paid taxes my whole working life. You act like youre the one paying for all medical science has achieved. get off your pedestal

    I think that might be your basic philosophy here
    You clearly havent a clue about anything here. Where do you get off? It's getting a little old listening to your insults.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  11. #151  
    OK that is enough personal attacks, one more and this thread it closed..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    OK that is enough personal attacks, one more and this thread it closed..
    Now the moderator comes along.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13.    #153  
    I agree this is getting ugly.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Now the moderator comes along.
    Please explain what you are trying to say with this??
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Please explain what you are trying to say with this??
    Thanks for closing my thread toolkit. I was typing and my son hit the enter key and it posted with nothing but the title. I was finishing the post in an edit and you come along and close it. You get a bit heavyhanded at times yunno.

    In regards to my previous comment. I was refering to how long it took you. And of course the fact that my post is the one that triggered yours.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree this is getting ugly.
    No comment.

    Just answer one question cell. Define "pretty young".
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Thanks for closing my thread toolkit. I was typing and my son hit the enter key and it posted with nothing but the title. I was finishing the post in an edit and you come along and close it. You get a bit heavyhanded at times yunno..
    In that case I'll reopen it for you.. it looked like some kind of smart @$$ thing (ironically) a kid would post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    In regards to my previous comment. I was refering to how long it took you. And of course the fact that my post is the one that triggered yours.
    I am in a different time zone remember and do have a day job...
    As for your post triggering it.. no, it just pushed it over the edge...Cellmatrix post was on the edge, but yours was clearly over it... but I read them at the same time and decided that enough is enough..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  18. #158  
    and now Cellmatrix is reluctant to respond at all.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    and now Cellmatrix is reluctant to respond at all.
    erm, maybe he's not online anymore???
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  20. #160  
    now TKit...like you've said to me before "children...play nice"
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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