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  1. #21  
    This discussion is dribble. President Bush has no real military record and Kerry has one.

    Nitpick all you want and you still get an AWOL for Bush and a real wounds and real medals for Kerry.

    There are more important issues than arguing about what happened 30 years ago. The real discussions should be about what will happen in the next 30 years.

    Finally, can’t anyone talk positive about their candidate and issues? Must we lower ourselves to eating dirty politics and dump over the opponent?
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Oops
    My goodness. Enough. Kerry served your country. He defended you and me and our children. Nit-picking and drooling over hysteria is a shamble. President Bush isn't my choice, but I am not going to nit-pick-drool over his life-long achievements. There are far more important issues to contend with then find a diddle in a haystack.
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson
    This discussion is dribble. President Bush has no real military record and Kerry has one.

    Nitpick all you want and you still get an AWOL for Bush and a real wounds and real medals for Kerry.

    There are more important issues than arguing about what happened 30 years ago. The real discussions should be about what will happen in the next 30 years.

    Finally, can�t anyone talk positive about their candidate and issues? Must we lower ourselves to eating dirty politics and dump over the opponent?
    You both said the same thing. There are more important issues. I wont disagree with that, but I think your boy Kerry could use that information. He is the one who keeps going on about his 3 Purple Hearts.

    I am amazed really that Kerry could get 3 PH's in 4 months and never miss a day of duty. I wonder what sort of man brags about those medals and wasnt even really hurt by the events that "earned" them.
    My uncle served in Viet Nam and was there for 2 years. He received a PH for an bullet wound to his forearm that still bothers him today. I have asked him about the scar and how he got it. He wont talk about any of it.
    Kerry didnt see any real combat that anyone can show documentation for and he doesnt seem at all bothered by his time there.

    But the real point is WHO CARES!!! His service in VN 30 years ago has no bearing on anything today. 4 months does not make that much different in someones life when it barely had any impact at the time. I am sure most of us have been injured worse in rec league sports.
    John McCain , now he can talk about Viet Nam. His time there had an impact.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    But the real point is WHO CARES!!! His service in VN 30 years ago has no bearing on anything today. 4 months does not make that much different in someones life when it barely had any impact at the time. I am sure most of us have been injured worse in rec league sports.
    John McCain , now he can talk about Viet Nam. His time there had an impact.
    I agree with you, Woof, that the 4 months of Kerry in Vietnam may not have a great impact on him as a president. The fact that he went there shows, however, that he is not a coward. The same cannot be said about Bush.

    I don't know all the detail about what happened to Kerry when, and why, but as I said, the details probably don't make such a big difference, the big picture is more important.

    Let's keep in mind where the dirt that is thrown on Kerry comes from: George W. Bush has a brain, it goes by the name of Karl Rove. Whoever supports Bush supports Karl Rove, the worst political scum around for decades. You mentioned McCain as a true war hero - keep in mind the stories that came up when McCain came close to Bush in the GOP primary in 2000.

    If you are ok with that, go ahead, vote for Bush...
    Last edited by clulup; 08/20/2004 at 08:07 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    Not taking sides in this at all, not my fight. But I thought everyone might be interested by this study showing the effects of stress on memory - the worse the stress the worse the memory. In other words, when people think that the events have been burned into their brains actually they have terrible recall!
    The study was conducted by the US Army and found that when soldiers are questioned under POW conditions, then asked about it later some of them even got the gender of the questioner wrong! The worse the stress the worse the recall. Both sides of the argument could use this info to their advantage, so I'm not taking sides.

    memory under stress study
    Animo et Fide
  5. #25  
    Woof:

    Vietnam was a horrible war, and to say most of us have been injured worse in rec sports is wrong. No rec sport can have the same effect of being shot at, having mortars land near you, seeing your friends blown apart, enduring monsoons, disease, and then a public that won't accept what you did when you return to the US.

    I have never heard of a case of Post Traumatic Stress from a Rec Sport. I have never seen scores of legless and or armless men suffering from the impact of rec sports.

    Even if your referral was about Kerry's tour, it was still an inappropriate metaphor.
  6. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #26  
    "Yes, I watch Fox, along with CNN, CNBC and MSNBC. In other words, I'm informed (and a news junkie). Fox News is no more biased to the right than the NY Times, Time Magazine and NPR are to the left."

    Watching four news channels does make you a "news junkie" but it certainly doesn't make you informed. What it makes you, and I'm not trying to single you out here, because few of us is any better, is well versed in what the two or three companies controlling media want to sell you.

    Remember, the first time a commercial aired on the 6 o'clock news, the word unbiased left the equation forever. News is a product, and like any product, it depends upon a certain level of manipulation to make it desireable to the consumer.

    Right bias? Left bias? Both of these exist in small ways. But the more important biases are sensationalism, beating everyone to the story, even if it isn't right, negativity over positivity, sex, drugs, and war, etc.

    Arguing about whether or not a guy is lying about is past is a lot more interesting to people than a three-week discussion on the benefits and drawbacks of the candidates' opposing economic philosophies.

    I think this thread proves that point. A few people beg that we argue about the real issues, but we just keep on harping on the same smaller issue. (Myself included.)

    How does one become "well informed?" I'm not sure it's possible. But it definitely requires going beyond CNN. Reading papers in addition to TV helps quite a bit. Especially those from several other countries. But who has time for that, right?

    I remember reading once that one Sunday edition of the New York Times has more information in it than the average person in the Middle Ages learned in his lifetime. Are we better off? Probably not.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  7.    #27  
    I was encouraged to see Kerry fighting back against this Swift boat smear. I really think that this is a turning point in the campaign and that now it is only a matter of time before we can get rid of Bush.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson
    Woof:

    Vietnam was a horrible war, and to say most of us have been injured worse in rec sports is wrong. No rec sport can have the same effect of being shot at, having mortars land near you, seeing your friends blown apart, enduring monsoons, disease, and then a public that won't accept what you did when you return to the US.

    I have never heard of a case of Post Traumatic Stress from a Rec Sport. I have never seen scores of legless and or armless men suffering from the impact of rec sports.

    Even if your referral was about Kerry's tour, it was still an inappropriate metaphor.
    Totally missed it didnt you. I was not talking about Viet Nam as a whole. I was talking about the injuries John Kerry sustained there. I was not talking about anything else. Why cant you see that? Because you choose not to.
    I'd like to see records of the combat Kerry endured including the shootings, mortars and how many of his friends were blown apart as he watched, the monsoons he survived and the diseases he suffered from. As far as the non accepting public, Kerry quickly became one of them when he returned to protest the war.

    Just because you have never heard of PTSD from a rec sport doesnt mean it hasnt happened, unless you are implying that yiou are personally aware of all the cases of PTSD. I doubt that but who knows. And regarding the impact of rec sports, I have a client who was almost killed when she was hit square in the larynx with a softball during a botched double play. The EMT that responded to the 911 call said she was lucky to be alive.

    Funny how your view of wounded from VN includes amputees as your prime example. Kerry doesnt even come close to that.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I was encouraged to see Kerry fighting back against this Swift boat smear. I really think that this is a turning point in the campaign and that now it is only a matter of time before we can get rid of Bush.
    Yep just a matter of time. like say 4 1/2 years.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10.    #30  
    we will see my friend, we will see
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I was encouraged to see Kerry fighting back against this Swift boat smear. I really think that this is a turning point in the campaign and that now it is only a matter of time before we can get rid of Bush.
    I have a different viewpoint on this. Kerry, and most of the media, virtually ignored this story for a long time. It is finally getting airtime, and people can make up their own minds on the issues, despite Kerry's threats to sue stations who rund the ads or publish the book.
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  12.    #32  
    I guess it depends on your perspective. I can tell you really thought this swift boat thing was an interesting story, your enthusisasm on the first thread speaks to this. Of course when you like the story, you are impatient for it to develop, you want to see coverage, etc.

    Other people like me, who just thought it was a gratuitous smear, thought it got played too much, and I did not feel that it deserved the attention that it did get.

    I agree with the other comments on this forum, that it is the issues the candidates should be focusing on right now, and those are the most important factors we should be using to shape our decisions, not the mud slinging.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree with the other comments on this forum, that it is the issues the candidates should be focusing on right now, and those are the most important factors we should be using to shape our decisions, not the mud slinging.
    Fair enough, but that goes both ways. For example:

    Bush lied
    Bush wasn't in the National Guard
    Bush = Hitler
    Anything said by Whoopie or Moore
    Bush is dishonest
    Bush smirks
    We all hate Bush

    I'm really trying to be fair here, but generally speaking, Kerry's supporters seem way more anti-Bush than pro-Kerry.

    Mud is flying from all sides, including a lot from Kerry supporters.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    In other words, when people think that the events have been burned into their brains actually they have terrible recall!
    I have seen similar studes on eyewitness accounts to crimes. People swear that they saw with their own eyes Mr. X commit the murder. Then it turns out someone else swears they saw with their own eyes Mr. Y commit the murder. Both people are 100-percent certain they are telling the truth.
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  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    generally speaking, Kerry's supporters seem way more anti-Bush than pro-Kerry.
    Yes, that is the way I feel too. I don't hate Bush, I just would rather see him playing around on his ranch with his dog, or doing some type of oil business with his Dad or something else he wants to do, rather than running our country.
  16. #36  
    MSNBC and the NYT have several articles today exposing the SwiftBoaters as having direct ties to the Bush Administration- many of them financially:

    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...wift_graph.gif

    The White House then issued a denial that they had any association with the SwiftBoaters.

    Way to go, Rove. The American people are sick to death of Repub smear campaigns. I am not a Repub, but know lots of them and they have also expressed their disgust with this whole affair.

    The man served, just leave him alone.
    Last edited by Eurokitty; 08/20/2004 at 05:15 PM.
  17. #37  
    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=6033806

    Kerry Files Suit Vs. Ads Challenging His War Record
    Fri Aug 20, 2004 06:12 PM ET

    FORT MYERS, Fla. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry asked the Federal Election Commission on Friday to force Republican critics to withdraw ads challenging his military service, and accused the Bush campaign of illegally helping coordinate the attacks.

    The Kerry campaign said it filed the complaint against the group behind the ads, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "for violating the law with inaccurate ads that are illegally coordinated with the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign and Republican National Committee."

    The campaign said there is "overwhelming evidence" that the group is coordinating its spending on advertising and other activities with the President Bush's campaign for reelection.

    Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel denied any coordination with the Swift Boat group, called it "a frivolous complaint."

    Bush and a top adviser have long-standing ties to people behind the advertisements, which claim Kerry lied about his Vietnam War service record, but the campaign denies any part in the ads themselves.

    The White House has declined to specifically condemn the Swift Boat commercials. It has instead challenged Kerry to join Bush in calling for an end to all ads funded by unrestricted donations, including those questioning Bush's service in the United States in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    The man served, just leave him alone.
    And if they don't leave him alone, don't worry. Kerry's lawyers will fight back with all of the legal tricks they know. With their commitment to free speech and democratice debate, they will threaten the tv stations with libel, send talking heads to scream about how the swift boat veterans are lying, the other veterans to get them to shut up, and file an FCC complaint against them. Oh wait, they already did all of this.

    OK, they can spend $62 million on negative ads attacking Bush through "independent" shadowy groups such as Moveon.org. Oh wait, they already did that too.

    I know, they can distance themselves from Michael Moore's hit piece. Oh, I forgot, they already invited Moore to sit next to President Carter during the Democratic National Convention. Darn.

    I have another idea: they could get Kerry's Cambodian Christmas pictures from 1968 when Kerry said he was in Cambodia while President Nixon said he wasn't there. Oh wait, Nixon wasn't President in 1968, and Kerry wasn't anywhere near Cambodia at that time. Bummer.

    Don't worry, with the NYT's help, they will "expose" something else. I know, how about questioning the Swift Boat vets' patriotism? That might work!
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty

    The man served, just leave him alone.
    Well when Kerry stops going on and on about how his 4 months in Viet Nam qualifies him to lead our country, I'll agree he should be left alone.

    I am sorry but from my point of view a 4 month tenure in anything does not make you qualified for much.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  20. #40  
    I don't want to get into a flame war, but I will say this: I work with active duty military and Veterans of the U.S. Military on a daily basis. I also spent 6 weeks in Iraq last fall. I wish you all could hear what these people have to say about the Bush Administration and it's treatment of the military and veterans. They are not scoring any points with these people when they have to buy body armor off eBay to keep from being maimed.
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