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  1. #361  
    Bush is getting sued for allowing his campaign advisers to coordinate with these 527 groups. We have had what, 2 resignations in the last 2 days on the Bush side. They wouldn't have resigned if something fishy wasn't going on.

    And wow woof... That's the most one sided news article I have ever read. No wonder I have never read any of that guy's peices.
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  2. #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Woof, can you shed light on mensnewsdaily.com please. Reading biased articles isn't too impressive even on Thursdays, but I think this Swift Boat-Issue has gotten too far, in my opinion.

    What? It's biased because it attacks Kerry? Why havent you complained about bias with the articles attacking Bush?

    Shed light on mensnewsdaily? its a website. I found a link I posted it. I didnt do an in depth analisys of the sites' history. It doesnt matter.
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  3. #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    What has gone to far? That Kerry has filed an FEC complaint against a political ad? That Kerry has threatened TV and radio stations with lawsuits if they don't refuse to run the ad?

    It is amazing Kerry is so worked up about a political commercial. He is running for President! Some people have different viewpoints and want to criticize him! Last I saw, this was still a (semi) free country where we can criticize a presidential candidate without the fear of being sued and attacked.

    I don't see Bush threatening to shut down Moveon.org or Michael Moore's movies.

    Sheesh!
    No, but you do see Bush taking action (legal?) against the swiftboat veterans for truth group which could mean trouble for them. Why would Bush do this if what they said was true and just their 'different viewpoints'? I suspect there is further evidence about to come to light on this group that is making everyone want to distance themselves from.

    If one is critical of Kerry for filing such compliants, then the same should be said of Bush. With the sudden actions of Kerry wanting to fight, and Bush speaking out against this group, I think we are in for some info on this group that won't speak well for them.
  4. #364  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    What? It's biased because it attacks Kerry? Why havent you complained about bias with the articles attacking Bush?

    Shed light on mensnewsdaily? its a website. I found a link I posted it. I didnt do an in depth analisys of the sites' history. It doesnt matter.
    The site sells products that would be considered conservative, Woof. There are ads all over to buy books, tshirts, etc. that are pro-conservative. It is clearly a site with a political view, easily observed on each page. Now compare that to a more traditional news site and see if you can spot the differences. Now go to Moveon.org and see how many pro conservative ads you see there? No, they have a different agenda so you won't. That is the difference, Woof.
  5. #365  
    On Aug 17, before the Swift Boat group controversy heated up, Kerry was leading Bush in the Rasmussen.com poll 49-46. Now, Bush is up 49-46, his biggest lead in a long time. While the race remains extremely close in all areas, there is a recent trend in trust and leadership issues going to Bush, and away from Kerry.
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  6. #366  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    No, but you do see Bush taking action (legal?) against the swiftboat veterans for truth group which could mean trouble for them....With the sudden actions of Kerry wanting to fight, and Bush speaking out against this group, I think we are in for some info on this group that won't speak well for them.
    Actually, Bush was just speaking out against all 527 groups, not just the Swift Boat people. The Dems have spent far more money through the 527 groups than Repubs.

    In my opinion, the McCain-Feingold (sp?) campaign finance laws stink. Just let people spend their money how they want to spend it, and fully disclose where the money is coming from. (e.g. China). Let people run whatever political ads they want, and let the people decide which political party or person to follow.

    It's kind of scary when the government regulates political speech. It's a slippery slope.
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  7. #367  
    The big test for Bush next is whether or not he gets a boost after the convention. I think Bush is in real trouble. This convention needs to be a big success for him. I imagine there are going to be alot of anti war protests and the like causing havic outside the conventionn center. Ashcroft has been targeting these groups for some time. If he doesn't come out of the convention with positive numbers, I can't see Bush winning. He won by such a small margin last time, it's not gonna happen again.
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  8. #368  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Yes it is biased b/c it attacks Kerry. But also b/c it represents one side.
    I have complained in the past about articles attacking candidates, including Bush, if I deemed them unfair.

    Perhaps this thread, sadly.

    Tit for tat. So what if it represents one side. You typically represent one side as do I. Does that mean our views arent valid? Hardly. The authors are entitled to their opinion. Every one here is so concerned about attacks its ridiculous. Try looking at the message instead of the delivery all the time.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  9. #369  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Woof, can you shed light on mensnewsdaily.com please. Reading biased articles isn't too impressive even on Thursdays, but I think this Swift Boat-Issue has gotten too far, in my opinion.
    Now, now Chickie. I think Woof is on to something here and I find it very responsible of him to bring it to everyone's attention.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #370  
    Quote Originally Posted by BLUES
    The big test for Bush next is whether or not he gets a boost after the convention. I think Bush is in real trouble. This convention needs to be a big success for him.
    Why is that? Bush is slightly ahead in the polls now, and is surging. Kerry is slightly slipping. How does that translate into: Bush "is in real trouble"? Funny how dems were saying that the DNC convention wouldn't give Kerry much of a bump because people already have their minds made up. (and he didn't) Now, you say Bush needs a big success in his convention? ha.
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  11. #371  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    It is amazing Kerry is so worked up about a political commercial. He is running for President! Some people have different viewpoints and want to criticize him! Last I saw, this was still a (semi) free country where we can criticize a presidential candidate without the fear of being sued and attacked.

    Sheesh!
    Kerry is only interested in supressing the 1st Amenment rights of those that oppose him. Hmmm
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #372  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    For once: I am speechless
    It's cause I just put a Twinkie in your mouth
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #373  
    "John Kerry has presented his Vietnam record as his major qualification to be president of the United States. It is, therefore, the duty of the American public to scrutinize that record carefully. And it is the duty of candidate John Kerry to facilitate that scrutiny. If all the senator's claims about his four months in Vietnam are factual, it would be to his great advantage to facilitate such scrutiny."

    http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040...5753-2062r.htm

    Comments from a combat surgeon in Viet Nam '68-69

    FYI
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #374  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    What has gone to far? That Kerry has filed an FEC complaint against a political ad? That Kerry has threatened TV and radio stations with lawsuits if they don't refuse to run the ad?

    It is amazing Kerry is so worked up about a political commercial. He is running for President! Some people have different viewpoints and want to criticize him! Last I saw, this was still a (semi) free country where we can criticize a presidential candidate without the fear of being sued and attacked.

    I don't see Bush threatening to shut down Moveon.org or Michael Moore's movies.

    Sheesh!
    No one is talking about taking away the right to criticize. There's a world of difference between pointing out someone's negatives and smearing someone's reputation with dubious conjecture. You can criticize all you want. You can even make implications that things may or may not be true, to a certain extent, but you can't call someone a liar without incontrovertible proof.

    And aren't you Republican types the ones that always blast the Democrats for criticizing Bush about the war? Unpatriotic? Anti-American? Pro-Terrorist? You have to stand behind your leaders? All that stuff? Seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black to me.

    I can't make a commercial claiming that you have sex with your dog on a regular basis. The lawyers ask me, "How do you know he has sex with his dog?" "Well," I say, "I didn't actually see the act, but he went into his house with a german shephard, and they were in there for about twenty minutes, and then they came out of the house and the dog was panting, so... "

    You can't do that. It's slander, and there are all sorts of laws (thankfully) which prevent it. Kerry has every right to legal action in this case. (Just as Bush does, too, against people like Moore calling him a deserter.)

    But that's not what both sides are arguing and suing about, anyway. They're arguing over whether or not the election finance laws are being violated. Two people in Bush's campaign have been shown to have been involved with the commercial for the swift boaters. Nothing they did was illegal, as far as we can tell, but having them resign in a rush has led many people to think there may be something illegal waiting to surface.

    Bush himself, instead of condeming the Swift Boat ads, is now making a push to end all this 527 stuff, and I think that's great. I don't think both sides should be able to spend whatever they want whenever they want, and have these so-called "independent" groups making ads for them that say or imply all kinds of misinformation. If you let people do whatever they want, then corporations run America instead of people, because whoever has the most money, not the best candidate, wins every election.

    Meanwhile, as we agreed upon before, Heberman, I think the democrats are shooting themselves in the foot by not moving away from this. Especially now that Bush is making a move to end the 527s. Bush isn't going to condemn the ad—he's way too arrogant for that. The more they demand he do it, the more obstinate he gets, and the more the Dems end up looking like crybabies all over again.

    And you're right about the convention, too. He won't get a push. Kerry didn't get a push. The American people have already made up their minds. At least 85% of them, anyway, according to the latest polls. (Which compares to 60 or so % in August 2000.) There are few people left to convince. Now it's just a matter of how many people actually show up to vote.

    The election will be another close one, barring any revelations in the next few months. Perhaps another squeaker, which is not good for the country, no matter who wins. But there's little we can do about that now.

    Wasn't that one of Bush's main credos during the last election? He was going to bring unity? Be a uniter, not a divider? Can't say he lived up to that one. Let's hope whoever wins this time around makes a better effort to bring us all back together.
    mrjoec
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  15. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #375  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Kerry is only interested in supressing the 1st Amenment rights of those that oppose him. Hmmm
    This is not a 1st Ammendment issue. At all.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  16. #376  
    that's a good point regarding kerry attacking a political ad.
    people, did bush make even a peep after the 2-hour political "ad" fahrenheit 911 was aired for several months? claiming unfair attacks and such? no! I never heard a word. why? because people have a right to express opinion!
    interesting how intolerable a simple ad is to kerry vs an entire 2 - hour cinematic attack on someone! yes I recognize its bc the ads question an honorable war record, but kerry used it as a campaign position - you should have expected somewhat of an examination of that position.
  17. #377  
    hell, just to be even more obnoxious, fo¤
  18. #378  
    to be even more obnoxious, moore pushed into bush's hometown to show the film. bush? not even a peep. no lawyers.
    kerry - full national legal issue over a political ad. its amusing let's just say that.
    proof of kerry's transgressions from the truth, you ask? well that's what's being investigated and questioned. not to smear, but to conclusively determine kerry's stories are the real truth.
    hey, mr kerry! if you have no worries, release your medical records and such. make this a lot easier on yourself!
  19. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #379  
    Bush didn't attack Farenheit 9/11 directly because his team wisely advised him to avoid giving it extra publicity.

    Several conservative groups, however, did try to get the movie banned. And there also was a legal debate over whether or not commercials for the film could be shown, because they might be considered campaign commercials. It was a very weak arguement, and they quickly dropped it out of embarrassment.

    Does anyone else remember this?

    Notice, few conservatives went after Moore for slander, however. They tried to contest the "seven minutes" as exaggerated, until Moore produced the original tape with all seven minutes included. But that was the only thing they questioned. The bottom line is, most of that movie is video of Bush and his crew actually doing and saying these things. Even without Moore's spin, Bush comes off pretty negatively. So it was best to let it pass, rather than getting the media into a frenzy over it, which only would have encouraged more people to watch it.
    mrjoec
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  20. #380  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    that's a good point regarding kerry attacking a political ad.
    people, did bush make even a peep after the 2-hour political "ad" fahrenheit 911 was aired for several months? claiming unfair attacks and such? no! I never heard a word. why? because people have a right to express opinion!
    interesting how intolerable a simple ad is to kerry vs an entire 2 - hour cinematic attack on someone! yes I recognize its bc the ads question an honorable war record, but kerry used it as a campaign position - you should have expected somewhat of an examination of that position.
    Apparently you did not see the movie.

    There are no claims made without proof in the form of actual video footage of this adminstration saying certain things.

    The movie is nothing but a compilation of video segments, narrated by Moore, and arranged in a certain fashion that most of us would call "progressive." In other words, he takes tape, and shows a subsequent tape and then another showing how the events unfolded.

    One of the most interesting videos in the movie was when Ms. Rice and Mr. Powell, in the year after the President was sworn in stated, unequivocably, and quite vociferously, that Saddam had no wmd's. Within a year, with clear direction from the President that Iraq would be a target, both of these administration members stated, without reservation, that he did have them (wmd's)(again, both stating so as recorded by the cameras). Then Moore adds the administration message changing from finding wmd's to fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq to removing Saddam to freeing the people of Iraq from tyranny to bringing democracy to the mideast. Now I don't know about you, but if Senator Kerry (or President Clinton) made this progression of statements, every Republican would be calling him a flip-flopper. I know you will probably deny this, but I feel if you stand one step back, you will see it as true.

    The difference between Fahrenheit 9/11 and the Swift Boat Vets is a simple one: Moore used videotape to document his allegations and claims. The vets have no solid facts. Facts require incontrovertible proof. If you do not have proof, then it is rumor, opinion or slander. Sort of like the Treo Ace. But, it is just one of those three.

    I guess you could call it faith, but that's another thread.

    Whether or not you agree with Senator Kerry, take one step back and say, how do they back up what they say? Why does Senator Kerry have to prove what is already down in black and white and recorded in the history books, rather than the person who claims the information is false? The last time I heard, the plaintiff always has to PROVE his case, the defendant doesn't have to disprove it. In case you forgot, this is how they do it in France ... you are assumed to be guilty and must prove your innocence. It's called the Napoleanic Code. So, are these vets following our code, or the French code?

    In my previous post I mentioned I really didn't care for Michael Moore. My mom wanted to go to the movie, but not alone, so I took her to see it (see, ladies, there are still a few of us single guys out there that respect our mothers ). I would encourage you to go see the movie with an open mind and afterwards, ask yourself a simple question ... if just 1% of this is absolutely true, should I take a harder look at things? That doesn't mean you have to change your position, just that you will be open to other information.

    Minds are alot like parachutes, you know. They work best when open.
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