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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by RICHINMJ
    Haven't read anything in this discussion. Just want to add, I once met Kerry, his initials are jfk but no jfk. He an a**hole.
    I wish you haven't said that. But truly, a person who discusses issues with your attitude is LESS likely to convince anyone, let alone convince himself, that his thoughts are worthy. Shame.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    I agree whole heartedly.

    But be honest Eurokitty, none of what is released about GW will have any affect on your opinion of him. Besides you and I both know that he did skip out on his drills for most a one year in the Gaurd. None of his National Gaurd record is commendable except that he did qualify to fly Fighters.

    So why does John Kerry's record and not GW's matter to me? Because GW did not wave that flag in front of my face. GWs service in the Gaurd was presented as background or biography of the man. It was the left who, long before John Kerry ever came into the picture, made it an issue. Bush has done little to defend his service record probably because it is not defensable. But, he hasn't cried foul about it like Kerry has. In my mind, however, he has as much as conceded it.

    Releasing John Kerry's medical record is important to me because I think it will provide support for our outrage over John Kerry's use of his Service as a cornerstone of his campaign. Again please note that it is not the record itself that is a problem it is his use of the record in his campaign.
    Hi John,

    I like the way you think, even though we appear to be on opposing sides.

    The problem I see with voters in this situation is that it's not so much a cult of Kerry as a cult of anti-Bush.

    The thing the Republicans are missing, is this election for many people is about kicking Bush out, not bringing Kerry in. They continually try to shift the focus onto Kerry because Bush has been such a collosal screwup that he's pretty much undefendable. The thing they miss is that many voters don't really CARE about Kerry. The fact that he is a viable not-Bush is enough for them.

    This attempt at focus-shifting is pretty much unsuccessful, people are concerned about the war, concerned about the economy, concerned about terrorism, and concerned about their personal liberties being taken away.

    The question they keep asking themselves, the issue they are all polarized around, is whether or not Bush has done a good job on these issues. Because his responses have seemed so radical and extreme, the prevelant feeling is that Kerry represents a "politics as usual" route. Compared to Bush, politics as usual is looking pretty good right now. Kerry represents a certain political "normalcy".

    If more people think Bush has done a "better than politics as usual" job, he'll get re-elected, if not, he won't. It has little to do with who is running against him.

    The election to me, is all about Bush, very little about Kerry.

    Of course the Republicans don't want Bush to be the focus because Bush has screwed almost everything up royally. They NEED a shift because Bush cannot stand on his record of screwups and moronic incompetancy. The shift is hard to acheive though. The current offensive, Kerry's war record, is kinda hard to explain when you come back to the fact that his opponent's service is questionable.

    Fundamentally, most people don't care all that much about Kerry. They care about the war. They care about the economy. They care about terrorism. What is a forty year old warstory compared to that? They are scared about these things. Kerry does not scare them. Fear is hard to get away from.
    Last edited by Eurokitty; 08/23/2004 at 03:50 PM.
  3. vw2002's Avatar
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    #203  
    johnbdh, thankyou. you express the sentiments many americans today have regarding their president.

    there will always be critics jousting with you after action is taken to defend your country. there will always be those who think their way would have been the better way. this is no perfect world. we do what we have to do.

    again, i applaud you for your contributions here, and im with you.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    Hi John,

    I like the way you think, even though we appear to be on opposing sides.

    The problem I see with voters in this situation is that it's not so much a cult of Kerry as a cult of anti-Bush.

    The thing the Republicans are missing, is this election for many people is about kicking Bush out, not bringing Kerry in. They continually try to shift the focus onto Kerry because Bush has been such a collosal screwup that he's pretty much undefendable. The thing they miss is that many voters don't really CARE about Kerry. The fact that he is a viable not-Bush is enough for them.

    This attempt at focus-shifting is pretty much unsuccessful, people are concerned about the war, concerned about the economy, concerned about terrorism, and concerned about their personal liberties being taken away.

    The question they keep asking themselves, the issue they are all polarized around, is whether or not Bush has done a good job on these issues. Because his responses have seemed so radical and extreme, the prevelant feeling is that Kerry represents a "politics as usual" route. Compared to Bush, politics as usual is looking pretty good right now. Kerry represents a certain political "normalcy".

    If more people think Bush has done a "better than politics as usual" job, he'll get re-elected, if not, he won't. It has little to do with who is running against him.

    The election to me, is all about Bush, very little about Kerry.

    Of course the Republicans don't want Bush to be the focus because Bush has screwed almost everything up royally. They NEED a shift because Bush cannot stand on his record of screwups and moronic incompetancy. The shift is hard to acheive though. The current offensive, Kerry's war record, is kinda hard to explain when you come back to the fact that his opponent's service is questionable.

    Fundamentally, most people don't care all that much about Kerry. They care about the war. They care about the economy. They care about terrorism. What is a forty year old warstory compared to that? They are scared about these things. Kerry does not scare them. Fear is hard to get away from.

    Whew! that sure was a load of left wing rhetoric.

    Anyone but Bush. Brilliant.
    There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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  5. vw2002's Avatar
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    #205  
    sorry, i double-posted
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    Hi John,
    The thing the Republicans are missing, is this election for many people is about kicking Bush out, not bringing Kerry in. They continually try to shift the focus onto Kerry because Bush has been such a collosal screwup that he's pretty much undefendable. The thing they miss is that many voters don't really CARE about Kerry. The fact that he is a viable not-Bush is enough for them.
    When phrased that way, it appears extremely similar to the 96 election. Bob Dole wasn't the best candidate, but so many people just hated Clinton (just like you talk about Bush being hated) no one noticed. Now to see if the results are the same...
  7. #207  
    Eurokitty I think your analysis of things here in the states shows how easily those not living in the states get mislead by the mainstream media in the US and the foreign press.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    The problem I see with voters in this situation is that it's not so much a cult of Kerry as a cult of anti-Bush.
    You got that right!
    I think you've got the root of it wrong, however. This anti-Bush sentiment is the direct result of the 2000 Election. Half of this country voted for Al Gore and to this day think GW stole the election away from them (please let's not get into this arguement now). Many of them will only get over it the day GW is out of office. Too most of these folks anything that he does will forever be held in contempt and the Iraq war, in their minds, was welcome fodder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    The thing the Republicans are missing, is this election for many people is about kicking Bush out, not bringing Kerry in.
    I do not think the Republicans miss any of this. They have long understood that it was going to be an uphill battle against the anti-Bush camp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    They continually try to shift the focus onto Kerry...
    I do not think the Bush campaign tries to "shift" anything. To wage a successful campaign requires a many faceted approach when promoting your candidate and discussing your opponent including past performance, vision for the future and the man himself. Of course the Bush campaign must and has every right to question John Kerry's record. It is part and parcel of any campaign. Kerry has to do the same thing. Many would charactize this type of campaigning as "attacks", but if you sat down and made a list of the "attacks" leveled by the left and the right you would see how much more of this the left has done than the right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    ...Bush has been such a collosal screwup that he's pretty much undefendable.
    Of course I completly disagree with this statement. That is your opinion and I think I could successfully debate anything you use to support your position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    ...people are concerned about the war, concerned about the economy, concerned about terrorism, and concerned about their personal liberties being taken away
    Absolutely, and the truth is that half this country think President Bush has done a good job in all of these areas and the other half believes he has not. I do not believe that the majority of folks on the side you have aligned your opnions with are part of the anti-Bush crowd. The majority of us on both sides of the aisle are intelligent, hard working, thoughtful citizens and all of us deserve to have our opinions respected by each other. The fact that half of this country is firmly behind President Bush tells me that he is getting good marks from at least half the populace and tells me that the so called anti-Bush crowd is running on uncontrolled emotions.
  8. #208  
    John, I do live in the U.S.
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Whew! that sure was a load of left wing rhetoric.

    Anyone but Bush. Brilliant.
    Woof, I don't think she was spewing left wing rhetoric. She was expressing her view of our political situation.

    While I disagree with her observations, I understand how she comes to her conclusions. What is alarming is how successful our main stream media is in spreading the "bad" news about this country. Imagine how things might be if the media leaned toward the other half of this countries voters. It is really a sad state of affairs and one which could only happen in America.
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    BTW, I for one appreciate your government's support during these dificult times. You may not agree with that support but I thank you for being there anyway.
    I agree with that, big time. I hope this isn't perceived as offensive to guys over there, but I see America somewhat as England's younger brother. The younger brother has grown a bit bigger and stronger than the elder, but both share the same heritage and come from a common viewpoint and ideal. At times, the younger brother still looks to the elder brother for some reassurance and support.

    The brothers may have grown apart and have their own minds, but there is still a bond between the two which has not yet been broken.
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    #211  
    While I've been hearing a lot of Democrats lately hoping that this whole swift boat thing will "backfire" on Bush, I fear that it has already accomplished its mission. Plant that tiny seed of doubt into people's heads and repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, until everyone is talking about it, and the very mention of war immediately brings a shadow of doubt on Kerry and Viet Nam, instead of the anguish so many of us have been feeling toward Bush and Iraq.

    What Bush needs right now more than anything are distractions. And his political machine is cranking them out left and right. His group is extremely talented at this, I have to admit. And from the looks of it, he'll owe his second term to this very practice.

    Kerry the vain self-promoter will go down in history along with Gore the exaggerator and Clinton the sex maniac. Not to mention McCain the father of an illegitimate black child, and Max Cleland the terrorist sympathizer.

    It's unfortunate that our media sells more commercial air time with these stories (not because of a right-wing bias, but because of a sensationalist bias) than it does with the truth—the more important matters at hand. And it's even more unfortunate that so many Americans buy into these distractions instead of demanding from their media answers to so many more important questions. Like:

    Why is Bush at the Ranch on vacation right now, while weeks have gone by since the Commission made recommendations, and almost three years have passed since 9/11 and we still haven't implemented anything? Not wanting to deny a guy some time with his family, or anything, and I know that he does do work out there, but isn't national security important enough to demand his (and congress') full attention right now? Shouldn't our commander in chief be at his office in Washington, where the president is supposed to be?

    Why, after the debacle four years ago in Florida, are there still questions about recountability and reliability of electronic voting machines? And why, after pronouncing recounts unnecessary thanks to the electronic machines being 100% reliable (we all know enough about technology to know the fallacy of trusting any electronic device) are letters being sent home to republicans in Florida (and Republicans only) telling them to vote absentee?

    Why does Bush hold "Ask the President" shows around the nation on his campain tour, and then have all the questions screened? Why are people who show lack of total enthusiasm for the President being denied admission to these events?

    If you're confident that your way of thinking is good, that your candidate is strong, and that the American people are on your side, why go through such lengths to assure your victory, risking the appearance of underhanded politics?

    And here's the big one that I can't figure out for the life of me. Why are Democrats playing defense with the swift boat thing, playing into the game of perpetuating the story in the media, instead of going after Bush on his many flaws? It's not like they're above playing dirty. They've done it before.

    Just a thought.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Woof, I don't think she was spewing left wing rhetoric. She was expressing her view of our political situation.
    I see it as the sad state of the Democratic party. Nothing to vote for, nothing positive about their candidate. The only mindset is to bash Bush, bash the economy, bash the Iraq success, bash conservatives, blah, blah, blah.

    Too bad Kerry has a total lack of support from his own party. If he can't even garner enthusiasm from his own supporters, what kind of a leader can he be?

    What is alarming is how successful our main stream media is in spreading the "bad" news about this country. Imagine how things might be if the media leaned toward the other half of this countries voters.
    That's why Fox News is the highest rated cable news program, by far, and why Rush and Hannity are #1 and #2 in talk radio. They have seen the huge neglected market share long ignored by the liberal networks.
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  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    John, I do live in the U.S.
    Really, I was under the imprrerssion that you were in Europe. Sorry. My opinion with regard to how impressionable our neighbors accross the pond are was prompted by my misconception that you were not here in the States. That doesn't, however, change what I think about how influential the negativism of our mainstream media can be around the world and not to mention here at home.

    I am curious, have you been here for a long time? Citizen? It will help to understand where you are coming from. I am enjoying our discussion.
  14. #214  
    [QUOTE=mrjoecKerry the vain self-promoter will go down in history along with Gore the exaggerator and Clinton the sex maniac.[/QUOTE]

    And that is inaccurate.....how?

    Just kidding. While I disagree with much of what you say, it was a very well-thought-out post. My undergrad background was in political science, and I find it extremely interesting how each campaign pursues its goals, responds to challenges, and modifies its tactics during the campaign. If I were Kerry, I would confront the Swift Boat allegations head-on, release all of my medical records, and then move on. (That's what Bush mostly did with the National Guard thing) Had Kerry done so, he would have been past this.

    I assume both the Bush and Kerry camps have more up there sleeves. It will be interesting to watch.
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  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    Is that kind of nasty comment [I for one consider America lucky that you will not be voting] really necessary? Does it add anything to the issues you're trying to argue? I think not. It only makes you look ignorant and mean. Perhaps you should rethink it. John has argued his views intelligently and with logic, and has not attacked others. Why can't you do that?
    I thought it was quite funny - not a personal attack.
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    #216  
    seriously! just release the medical records, kerry! if you're in the right, then bush has nothing to go on. release them and let the chips falll where they may. this will be interesting to watch.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurokitty
    I agree, I think all records, military and medical (to DATE), for BOTH candidates should be released. That includes the "missing" records for Bush.
    Too bad Kerry doesn't agree with you. But he did demand for Bush's records, which were later released. Kerry said: “If George Bush wants to ask me questions about that through his surrogates, he owes America an explanation about whether or not he showed up for duty in the National Guard. Prove it. That's what we ought to have. I'm not going to stand around and let them play games.” -- John Kerry, NBC News, 4/26/04

    Bush (belatedly) released his records, and it has become a nonissue. But I can't figure out why Kerry doesn't defuse his own war records issue by releasing the records. I really don't think there is a smoking gun in them, so why keep the records hidden?
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  18. vw2002's Avatar
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    #218  
    also, apparently kerry received schrapnel from his own handgrenade, and a contusion on his arm which was a result from his being knocked off balance as a result of an explosion near the boat. both incidents warranted purple hearts.

    in kerry's journal, supposedly, HE wrote himself that his crew was yet to be shot at. this after he received the shrapnel and the contusion. so im not so sure about the purple hearts of john kerry. not saying that his serving in vietnam wasnt admirable - it was. but ive a friend who barely escaped death when an ENEMY grenade was tossed into his camp, killing his buddy and wounding him. no purple hearts received here though. so i have a lot of doubts toward kerry's purple hearts.

    not sure his injuries are worthy of purple hearts. you be the judge.

    i
    I gotta have more cowbell
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Really, I was under the imprrerssion that you were in Europe. Sorry. My opinion with regard to how impressionable our neighbors accross the pond are was prompted by my misconception that you were not here in the States. That doesn't, however, change what I think about how influential the negativism of our mainstream media can be around the world and not to mention here at home.

    I am curious, have you been here for a long time? Citizen? It will help to understand where you are coming from. I am enjoying our discussion.
    Go back and read through my posts in this thread- you can get a good idea about my background from those.
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    #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    Kerry the vain self-promoter will go down in history along with Gore the exaggerator and Clinton the sex maniac.
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    And that is inaccurate.....how?

    Hey. I never said it was innacurate. Just that it was a distraction from the more important matters at hand. The McCain and Cleland things were far closer to smear campaigns, and in those instances I was actually quite offended. I would have gladly voted for McCain had Bush not beat him out of the primary, and I'd probably be voting to re-elect him in November over Kerry. But I don't get to make that decision, so that's a moot point. Maybe one of these days I'll have to register myself with a party instead of being independent, and then I can influence those primaries.

    We often disagree Heberman, but I'm glad we don't resort to attacking each other. I have many siblings and cousins who believe as you do, and I've never seen any reason to not like them for it. That's what makes our country as great as it is; the right to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    "My undergrad background was in political science, and I find it extremely interesting how each campaign pursues its goals, responds to challenges, and modifies its tactics during the campaign. If I were Kerry, I would confront the Swift Boat allegations head-on, release all of my medical records, and then move on. (That's what Bush mostly did with the National Guard thing) Had Kerry done so, he would have been past this."
    I definitely agree with you on this. He's playing right into the swift boater's hands by not moving on. The bottom line is that politics is a careful battle of strategies, and I do think Bush's team is playing the better game at this point. Does that mean he deserves the win in November? The idealist in me hates to admit it, but maybe it does.

    I thought after the Gore debacle that the Democrats would give it more than the old college try this time around. And I do like Kerry somewhat more than Bush (not just because I hate Bush, but because some of Kerry's economic and international ideas strike me as the better approach). But I think the DNC is handling this whole election pretty poorly.

    Well, it's far from over, right? I think the debates are going to get fairly interesting. If Kerry doesn't slam dunk Bush there, he's going to have a really tough time winning. And even if he does, he's still going to have to learn to play offense a little more.
    Last edited by mrjoec; 08/23/2004 at 06:16 PM.
    mrjoec
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