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  1. #21  
    here's the rundown in my view:

    yes kerry went to vietnam, which is more that can be said about bush. although bush was in service, it wasnt to the extent that kerry was. thats a given.

    BUT, it certainly seems quite fishy as to what exactly went on over there.
    there's a lot of controversy. out of all the heroic acts he is responsible for, which ACTUALLY HAPPENED? And how much of it has been exaggerated as stories were passes from person to person? there are claims that kerry filmed REENACTMENTS of events that took place, not the actual events themselves - reenactments can be "touched up" if you catch my drift.
    i i guess what the question here is: " what exactly is true?
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipro
    I read that blog....seems to help discredit the guys motives, but it does not explain that the doctor who treated Kerry's first purple heart says he used a band-aid to cover the wound

    The blog shows that statements already made by people in the ad were false...perhaps not every person (doesn't mean they didn't lie, just that proof remains to be seen) lied, but it casts a large dark shadow over the entire ad regardless. Is the blog a lie? I dunno, but at least there's some research and documents to back it up.

    If these statements are true, where are the undercover investigations to serve as proof? We know the press would be all over this, just as they were with Bushs' military record and Clinton's scandals. I just don't buy it. Perhaps we'll see more once the book surfaces.

    I am personally sick of the negative ad style to sell one's candidate. Most of them take statements out of context, manipulate the truth, and offer nothing positive. I guess if you have nothing good to say about your own guy, just attack the other one and dig up all the trash you can on him. In the end you're left feeling like another mushroom being fed sh-- and kept in the dark.
  3. #23  
    I am surprised to see how little trust you put into the fact that Kerry was awarded the purple hearts in the first place. Does the army not check who did what before it hands out medals?

    And what about the guys from his boat that were on stage with Kerry in Chicago? Are they all lunatics and lyers? I doubt any of the people in the ad were closer to Kerry than the people on the boat.

    And what about the other guy, Bush? He got the safest job the army could offer at the time, didn't he, despite dubious results in his test? I would also invest quite a sum into ads as the one mentioned above, if I were him...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I am personally sick of the negative ad style to sell one's candidate. Most of them take statements out of context, manipulate the truth, and offer nothing positive. I guess if you have nothing good to say about your own guy, just attack the other one and dig up all the trash you can on him. In the end you're left feeling like another mushroom being fed sh-- and kept in the dark.
    I agree about the problems with negative ads. Both major parties do it now, and have done it in the past, big time. Unfortuately, studies show that negative ads help win an election. There is also the issue of free speech. I don't know the solution to the issue.
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  5. #25  
    Here is a copy of a letter said to be from the DNC and the Kerry-Edwards lawyers threating stations with libel if they air the Kerry video:

    http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesui...unfit_pdf.html
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  6. #26  
    culup,

    Kerry's request for his first purple heart was denied by Division 14 Commander Grant Hibbard. When Hibbard saw his scratch (said he has seen rose thorns make bigger wounds) coupled with the fact that the other eyewitness said the wound was a result of Kerry improperly firing a grenade launcher, Hibbard told him to forget it and to leave his office. No one knows how Kerry got this purple heart but most suspect he wrote himself up. This mystery only continues because of Kerry.

    Kerry can clear up this matter today, if he will release the records. One has to wonder why he won't. I think the answer is obvious.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    culup,

    Kerry's request for his first purple heart was denied by Division 14 Commander Grant Hibbard. When Hibbard saw his scratch (said he has seen rose thorns make bigger wounds) coupled with the fact that the other eyewitness said the wound was a result of Kerry improperly firing a grenade launcher, Hibbard told him to forget it and to leave his office. No one knows how Kerry got this purple heart but most suspect he wrote himself up. This mystery only continues because of Kerry.

    Kerry can clear up this matter today, if he will release the records. One has to wonder why he won't. I think the answer is obvious.
    He has released his records...the link was provided in the second post.

    http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_...y_records.html

    They've been released for sometime. Where did you previously look for them? Are there additional records you're speaking of that haven't been released?

    Where is the mystery?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Kerry can clear up this matter today, if he will release the records. One has to wonder why he won't. I think the answer is obvious.
    Kerry hasn't released his military records? After all of the talk about Bush releasing his? Weird. What is there to hide?
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  9. #29  
    He's released only the treatment record for incident, which is where Dr. Letson put a band aid on his wound. The other documents pertaining to how he received the awards are still sealed. From what I read only Kerry filing a military Standard Form 180 will release these documents.

    I agree hebermen, the media was in a frenzy about Bush not releasing his records but are quite silent about Kerry. In fact the only news about this on the major sites is that Mcain condemed it. Not surprised however.
  10. #30  
    Ok, I've looked through the records listed and cannot find where Dr. Letson put a band aid on his wound. Where in the documents did you find that?

    I did find a medical personnel report that mentioned shrapnel in his left thigh, but I didn't see any info on treatment.
    Last edited by Tribalenvy; 08/05/2004 at 04:30 PM. Reason: additional info
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    culup,...
    Lucky I am getting used to my screen name being misspelt - never mind carter437, it's a long story, and I really don't care
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #32  
    Sorry about that clulup.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    He's released only the treatment record for incident, which is where Dr. Letson put a band aid on his wound. The other documents pertaining to how he received the awards are still sealed. From what I read only Kerry filing a military Standard Form 180 will release these documents.

    I agree hebermen, the media was in a frenzy about Bush not releasing his records but are quite silent about Kerry. In fact the only news about this on the major sites is that Mcain condemed it. Not surprised however.

    Ok, I've searched and searched and cannot find this record you mention, Carter437. Do you have a link for the medical record in question?
  14. #34  
    Tribalenvy,

    No I sure don't, I just heard it discussed. It actually came up though with the libel letter the DNC is sending to all TV stations warning them not to air the ad. The DNC cites the document, stating the doctor was lying because there is a signature on the form is from another doctor besides Dr. Letson. I heard Letson interviewed today and he said the signature was from an HM1 (Hospital Foreman Medical First Class) who was responsible for signing out forms. Letson said the HM1 is somewhat illegible and people (DNC) interpret this as MD.
  15. #35  
    Heres a quote from the doctor:
    I have a very clear memory of an incident which occurred while I was the Medical Officer at Naval Support Facility, Cam Ranh Bay.

    John Kerry was a (jg), the OinC or skipper of a Swift boat, newly arrived in Vietnam. On the night of December 2, he was on patrol north of Cam Ranh, up near Nha Trang area. The next day he came to sick bay, the medical facility, for treatment of a wound that had occurred that night.

    The story he told was different from what his crewmen had to say about that night. According to Kerry, they had been engaged in a fire fight, receiving small arms fire from on shore. He said that his injury resulted from this enemy action.

    Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks.

    That seemed to fit the injury which I treated.

    What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.

    I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

    The wound was covered with a bandaid
  16. #36  
    So this is all just Dr. Letson's word on the matter? I looked at the DNC and it looked horrible. For a document that just came out and in this modern day it was very difficult to read. You'd think they'd have a better scan of the DNC.

    At any rate the medical record I saw mentioned the left thigh, so it must be a different injury/medical record altogether.

    It definitely seems that more reading is in order. I prefer documents as opposed to statements, but I'll dig up Dr. Letson's statements if there's anything more than what you've provided. The document provided by Kerry lists the thigh injury, so there must be more than just one medical document provided as we earlier thought. If Kerry has to authorize release, then he's done so for more than one document.

    Thanks for the info!
  17. #37  
    Yea I agree, it would be nice to see the document. Thought this should be easy to dispell either way. Letson mentions he was the only doctor on that base. The name of the HM1 was on the form. Someone who knew where to look etc could determine whether he was the only one there.

    I'm not sure how many medical records / war records are released but from what I see it is not all of them. Feb 29, Max Clealand defended Kerry for not releasing all his Vietnam records and I don't think anything has changed since then. Here is the interview.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...9/222552.shtml

    The SwiftBoaters Against Kerry have released 1 chapter (The purple heart hunter) of the upcoming book "Unfit For Command" online. You can get it here:

    http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/offer.html
  18. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I guess you missed the Moveon.org videos comparing Bush to Hitler, or you missed Whoopi Goldberg's profane comparisons about Bush and Cheney, or you missed Howard Dean's suggestion that Bush had prior knowledge of the 9-11 attacks, or the Democrats disclosing Bush's old DWI conviction 3 days before the 2000 election.

    You are correct that when the [Democrats] stoop this low, it's hard not to be repulsed.
    There was one Moveon video that compared Bush to Hitler, and once the Moveon People realized that it was there, they removed it immediately, thinking it was in poor taste. The Right Wing media have been screaming about it ever since, though it was a dead issue long ago.

    Dean's suggestion that Bush had prior knowledge to 9-11 has proven to be at least a little true. He did have the PDB, which suggested that some kind of attack was coming, and he had other intelligence which suggested the use of airplanes as bombs. Considering the flimsy WMD evidence he gathered as justification to invade Iraq, you'd think that would be enough for him to take SOME kind of precaution, at the very least, after the first plane hit the WTC.

    The DWI conviction, I agree, was a dirty trick. But it wasn't a lie. It was just carefully timed. Like the Orange alerts we've been getting at just the right moments lately.

    I never said both sides didn't stoop on occasion. That's all part of the game. I just think there is a world of difference between playing politics and outright slander. If you are so desperate to win that you have to make up bad stuff about the other candidate, then you don't stand much of a chance to win popular support, even if you do win the election.

    I'm sure there are a ton of really bad things you could say about Kerry without lying. So why not say those, rather than attacking his millitary record, which, after much scrutiny, is still ultimately proving to be pretty soild.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  19. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    The idea this is about Kerry not having enough bravery or service is laughable. The statement that this comes from people who never served with Kerry is laughable because all the accusations about bogus purple hearts and bronze stars come from people who were eye witnesses to the events that Kerry claims merits his medals. In fact many knew him well. Two minutes of research would reveal this.
    Really? Two minutes? In thirty seconds, my research revealed that NONE of the people in that commercial ever met Kerry. Their claims that they "served with him" turn out to be false. Unless "served with him" means that they were in the same war, not the same unit, or on the same boat. And the doctor who claims to have put a band aid on Kerry isn't the same doctor that Kerry's records, released long ago, reveal as the doctor who treated him for his purple heart injury.

    The only true "eye witnesses" I've read statements from are the members of his boat crew, all of which shed a pretty positive light on Kerry. Could they somehow be motivated by bias to exaggerate and make him out to be a hero when he isn't? Of course. But I'll take their word over someone who wasn't even there, but who claims to have been. At least I can prove right away that he's lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    I am not aware of Bush ever discrediting Kerrys service, can you give an example?
    Well, not directly, of course. We've all seen the "paid for by friends of..." disclaimers at the ends of political ads. The Dems do the same thing.

    One would hope, however, that those "friends" get approval for their statements before they are released. Otherwise, the "friends" would do more harm than good. If this Kerry ad proves to be based on fabrication, which it looks to have been, then I think McCain is right to ask the White House to officially condemn it. That would be a classy move, in my opinion, and would help me to think better of Bush.


    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    So lets debate this topic but lets not just make things up.

    This boils down to did Kerry lie and make up stories to obtain war medals. Since Kerry is running hard on this issue it makes sense to examine this. The lynchpin of his campaign is this four months of his life and we need to know if all this is predicated on lies.

    Some things these guys have seen, such as Kerry committing war crimes by torching villages we know is absolutely true. Kerry said so himself in 1971.
    Yes. Kerry did commit war crimes in Viet Nam. Everyone in Viet Nam committed war crimes in Viet Nam. If you or I watched dozens of our best friends get blown up by grenades carried by little kids, we'd shoot everything that moved and burn villages thereafter, too.

    My point is that the only reason Bush didn't commit war crimes in Viet Nam was because he was never there. And that wouldn't be his fault if he had never been called to duty. If he hadn't been of the right age. If he hadn't been able due to some physical condition. But he was perfectly able—just not willing. And being a rich man's son, he had a way out, just like Kerry, another rich man's son did. He took it. Kerry didn't. Bush sat back while lower middle class boys his own age who didn't have another option died by the thousands.

    That, if you ask me, makes any statement coming from Bush about patriotic duty and sacrifice laughable.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  20. #40  
    turns out Swift boater Larry Thurlow's actual military records contradict his version of events and supports Kerry's.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug18.html
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/19/2004 at 02:27 PM.
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