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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Maybe it's time for Canada, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland to held France. You know...make it a UN thing. I think we are busy right now.
    I dont get it, I thought you said you were the person that stood up against the bully... I guess only one bully at the time... just makes me wonder why Iraq and not the others...
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    What is your beef with the french? you seem some kind of strong dislike for them I cant work out...

    and to bounce your question, why does the US need them with so much oil, why does holland need them with so much natural gas?
    And who are you refering to with 'them' sudan or Iraq? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $sudan$ $has$ $a$ $pretty$ $small$ $oil$ $reserve$...
    I dont have any problem with France. I guess no more then the typical Frenchee has with the US. The 1st them was Iraq and the 2nd them was reactors
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I have this feeling that you dont know much about the United States. We certainly dont have anything like Marshall law and with representative government and 24 hour cable news the government certainly doesnt operate behind closed doors.
    I think I know more about the US than you know about France to be honest...

    I didnt say you have marshall law, just that you are heading that way...
    And don't kid yourself about the 24 hour cable news, it is anything but unbiased...
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  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I dont have any problem with France. I guess no more then the typical Frenchee has with the US. The 1st them was Iraq and the 2nd them was reactors
    I wonder why you single them out all the time though...
    The germans and Russians amongst many others opposed iraq too, you hardly ever mention them...

    It seems like you use the french as a scapescoat (how do you spell that anyway?)
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  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think I know more about the US than you know about France to be honest...

    I didnt say you have marshall law, just that you are heading that way...
    And don't kid yourself about the 24 hour cable news, it is anything but unbiased...

    Well I dont know anything about France, so If your knowledge of the US is based on what I know about France, I was right, you really dont know much about the US.

    And as far as heading toward Marshall Law, that is, now let's be "civil", one of the most idiotic things I ever heard.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    scapescoat (how do you spell that anyway?)
    Like you say it...without the middle s and take the coat off the goat
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Well I dont know anything about France, so If your knowledge of the US is based on what I know about France, I was right, you really dont know much about the US.

    And as far as heading toward Marshall Law, that is, now let's be "civil", one of the most idiotic things I ever heard.
    I know a lot about the US actually.. been there a number of times, work for an american company and discuss politics with american on allmost a daily basis...

    As for the marshall law thing, have you read the patriot act? I havent but what I hear from it would make me scared if I was living in the US.. add to that guantanomo bay and holding suspects without a trial, pretty scary stuff... sure technically that is not in the US, but that is just a loophole..

    I've got a funny feeling the Bush Gov. is using the fear for terrorism to enlarge its powers...
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  8. #108  
    In Sudan intervention may cause escalation which wouldn't help anyone. That's why it's progressing slowly, it's best to exhaust all other methods possible before sending in the troops. In any case troops are going in - Africa Union troops. Not very many yet, but hopefully it will be more soon. It is, I'm sure everyone would agree, better for an African problem to be solved within Africa. The UN is applying a lot of pressure, you have to give each step up in pressure a chance to work before you take the next step. It's slow, frustrating and people keep on dying, but if you just send in the troops straight away and war erupts then many more people die.

    One other thing about this thread, I just want to say: don't think your country is right just because it's your country. Americans tend to think they live in the best country on the planet and that everything they do is for the best. That's not necessarily the case guys! An example, not from this forum but a statement by a US politician I saw before the Iraq war started. I forget who, but he was a republican linked to the Bush administration. He said that the 20th century had seen a massive rise in the number of democracies around the world and that this was due to American efforts during the Cold War. With me so far? How many of you guys would agree with that?
    I'm guessing if one of your politicians came out with a statement like that you'd feel proud and that the US was really doing something to help the world.
    Except it's only half the story, the reason behind the growth of democracy around the world in the mid-20th century was the dismantling of the British Empire/French Colonies etc. Sure, the US can claim some credit for the democracy that came with the end of the cold war, but not many before then.
    Don't believe what politicians tell you, even (or maybe especially) when what they tell you makes you feel good. Often it's only half-truths at best.

    Caveat: I mention the story about the politician above because I think it accurately reflects one aspect of how the US views the world. The US does do good things, but tends to think it was all down to them. That attitude is one that really gets up everyone else's noses. Feel free to disagree (I know you will ).
    Last edited by PeterBrown; 08/06/2004 at 05:38 AM. Reason: readability :p
    Animo et Fide
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Well I dont know anything about France, so If your knowledge of the US is based on what I know about France, I was right, you really dont know much about the US.

    And as far as heading toward Marshall Law, that is, now let's be "civil", one of the most idiotic things I ever heard.
    I think we in Europe know more about the US than we're given credit for, simply because it is the world's superpower and therefore there is a lot more in our papers / news about it on a daily basis, than say, there is in the US press about France / Belgium. Although I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what the US says and does I'm glad we're on the same side. If other countries are going to be invaded then I'd also prefer to have UN approval, after all this is what it was set up for - to resolve peacefully disputes. Here in the UK, Blair is still receiving some serious flak for the governments actions over Iraq - this is the way it should be, governments need to be accountable.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    marshal law
    Spelling time, that's MARTIAL law
    Animo et Fide
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    As for the marshall law thing, have you read the patriot act? I havent but what I hear from it would make me scared if I was living in the US.. add to that guantanomo bay and holding suspects without a trial, pretty scary stuff... sure technically that is not in the US, but that is just a loophole..
    The USA PATRIOT act (worse acronym ever) may seem scary, but in reality it is simply codifying many existing practices. The powers it grants certain realms of the federal gov't have been used for years, though more oversight would make it sit better with me, personally. Unfortunately that act has become to the left what "strong on defense" has become to the right: a favorite whipping boy used batter the "other side."
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by murrayalex
    I think we in Europe know more about the US than we're given credit for, simply because it is the world's superpower and therefore there is a lot more in our papers / news about it on a daily basis, than say, there is in the US press about France / Belgium.
    How do you find your news sources when you compare them to, say, a balanced mix of US Journalism (throwing the NYT and WSJ in a blender, for instance)? How much do they differ? That leads to my honest question (though it may sound rhetorical): Does the increased press in Europe actually increase what you know or does it reinforce existing stereotypes?

    I try to read the BBC to get another perspective, though I know they are not the most unbiased source in the world. Unfortunately I only speak English.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    How do you find your news sources when you compare them to, say, a balanced mix of US Journalism (throwing the NYT and WSJ in a blender, for instance)? How much do they differ? That leads to my honest question (though it may sound rhetorical): Does the increased press in Europe actually increase what you know or does it reinforce existing stereotypes?

    I try to read the BBC to get another perspective, though I know they are not the most unbiased source in the world. Unfortunately I only speak English.
    there has been some discussion in recent times about the so called independance or not of the BBC but I would have to say overall they are impartial, they have to be as they are funded via TV licence fee ie public subscription and are subject to various apparantly independant reviews. Speaking for myself here, I would say that I tend to read the factual news reporting pages firstly which tend to stay clear of opinion and just report the facts. Of course within the various papers there will be plenty of political comment / personal opinion but I take these with a pinch of salt usually a sthey are just that - personal opinion. There's a fair bit of coverage of the forthcoming election in the US obviously as the outcome of this is important to us as it may or may not affect future relationships...I would have to say the overriding impression I get from the UK press, this may be completely wrong, is that teh feeling is that Mr Kerry will not be as much of a "special ally" as good ol' G Bush...is that fair comment ??
  14. #114  
    Generally speaking there is a very wide variety between UK newspapers and TV channels. Some are traditionally Tory (right-wing), some traditionally Labour (left-wing) and there is also the Murdoch Press, which seems to vary on the whims of Mr Murdoch (but usually right-wing). If you had to get extremes of opinion you should try reading the Daily Mail (I don't know if that's online) and the Guardian (which is online at www.guardian.co.uk). Quite often they will report the same story from a very different angle. People tend to read the paper or watch the TV station that reflects their views but there are some genuinely independent sources, like the Indepedent or Channel 4 news. The BBC are generally pretty unbiased I think, they give politicians from both sides a hard time! I normally feel more informed with the new-sources I read, however the biggest selling newspaper in the UK is the Sun, which is a Murdoch paper designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and show a nice pair of breasts every day. (You can also get the Star for breasts, or the Daily Sport which is essentially a porn newspaper.)
    Animo et Fide
  15. #115  
    My experience is quite limited, but every german I've ever met seems in the know concerning the geography of the US as well as the political climate. My brother married a german and lives out there now. He has reservations about our invasion of Iraq and how it was handled. He also appreciates the attitude towards Americans by Europeans (at least in his area.) His wife, her family, and their friends all demonstrated a superior knowledge of the US; quite impressive considering they had never been here. The could tell you the distance from Boulder to Denver for example. They know smaller cities in New Mexico than the residents here, not to mention that some Americans don't even realize New Mexico is a part of the United States. Please know that my brother did serve his country (SF), understands the good and bad sides of war first hand, and will die before long as a direct result. He loves the US as well.

    I am proud to live in the United States, and I do believe it's the best country in the world. I hope you would think yours is too. I am not so arrogant and naive to believe that the US goes around helping others selflessly, however. We have a reason and an interest, generally, for evey instance we've 'stepped' in. There are many global instances where Americans have not stepped in, and we all know it. Some have already been mentioned, but we (Americans) have yet to answer for why we did not take action then. What about Africa? What about the dictators who starve their citizens throughout the world, intercepting food shipments so their citizens die a horrible death? What was happening in Iraq was horrible, but was that the only place? Regardless of the fact that the Bush family has oil interests out there, something needed to happen, but why not get UN sanction? I believe it wouldn't have taken that much longer, but who knows? We didn't wait to go through all the channels. A believed perception of weapon existed, but what about the nuclear issue in the Korean Peninsula?

    When we invaded Iraq there began a division in US with its citizens. Those who expressed any concern about invasion were called unamerican. People put flags on their cars, houses, and told those who showed any dissent to love it or leave it (many in my area displayed their flags wrong, but oh well). What are we so afraid of? Aren't we founded on free speech? In my estimation it isn't unpatriotic to speak your mind -it is part of what we stand for.

    I am not for putting down other countries either. The US is made up of people from other countries after all. That is part of the beauty. I am ignorant to the ways and customs of others, so I wouldn't dare put them down. I have not walked a mile in their shoes.

    For the record I have not added much input to this discussion as I feel I do not know enough to -that is why I wanted to learn from the debate, not simply hear name calling, and the ever ignorant "love it or leave it" attitude which serves only to show what the debator does not know.

    Lastly, I have heard far more from the right than the left concerning the Patriot Act. At least the far right on radio. They are the ones who have shown the most concern from my perspective. Of course, we don't have too many (any) left based talk shows in my neck of the woods.

    My hope is that we can learn and be better people from discussions such as these. That is hard to accomplish when we don't even bother to listen or respond to another viewpoint.
    Last edited by Tribalenvy; 08/06/2004 at 10:27 AM. Reason: spelling
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I am proud to live in the United States, and I do believe it's the best country in the world.
    Thank you for your post. The part about thinking that the US are the best country in the world caught my attention (however, I obviously don't mean you (Tribalenvy) in the following):

    Many (if not most) Americans think the US are the best country in the world. Is that really surprising if it is the only country they know about?

    They think the US beat Hitler, but they have no idea about what happened to the Nazis in Russia, and why? They think the US beat communism all by themselves but they don't know the word Perestroika? They think the US are always on the side of democracy, but they don't know about the role of the US in Argentina, Chile, and other South American nations?

    You pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States in school on an almost daily basis (I used to do that, too, as a first grader in the US, and didn't feel too comfortable with it already then), so maybe it is not too surprising that the views of many US citizens are a bit more biased than they should be, even for a patriotic nation.

    I perfectly agree with you that the US are a great nation with great people and fantastic achievments, but a bit more knowledge about history, backgrounds, other nations and cultures would certainly not be a bad thing.

    As mentioned in another thread, a renowned US company that regularly makes rankings of the quality of life in different cities world-wide has put the leading US city to rank 24, way behind many European, Canadian and Australian Cities. Shouldn't the US citizens enjoy a better quality of life when compared to others if the US are the best nation in the world?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Thank you for your post. The part about thinking that the US are the best country in the world caught my attention (however, I obviously don't mean you (Tribalenvy) in the following):

    Many (if not most) Americans think the US are the best country in the world. Is that really surprising if it is the only country they know about?
    I feel the same way and I have visited 30 countries (still counting) and have lived in 5. Is that surprising?

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    They think the US beat Hitler, but they have no idea about what happened to the Nazis in Russia, and why? They think the US beat communism all by themselves but they don't know the word Perestroika? They think the US are always on the side of democracy, but they don't know about the role of the US in Argentina, Chile, and other South American nations?
    1. Yep, I know.
    2. Yep, I know.
    3. Yep, I know.

    We can still add many more countries. I still have not changed my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States in school on an almost daily basis (I used to do that, too, as a first grader in the US, and didn't feel too comfortable with it already then), so maybe it is not too surprising that the views of many US citizens are a bit more biased than they should be, even for a patriotic nation.
    There is nothing wrong with being proud about your country...or biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I perfectly agree with you that the US are a great nation with great people and fantastic achievments, but a bit more knowledge about history, backgrounds, other nations and cultures would certainly not be a bad thing.
    I agree and that is why I travel and study about other cultures as much as possible. But will that make me change my mind? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    As mentioned in another thread, a renowned US company that regularly makes rankings of the quality of life in different cities world-wide has put the leading US city to rank 24, way behind many European, Canadian and Australian Cities. Shouldn't the US citizens enjoy a better quality of life when compared to others if the US are the best nation in the world?
    "US cities have slipped in the rankings this year as tighter restrictions have been imposed on entry to the country. Increased security checks on arrivals and departures from the country can be very time-consuming for expatriates."

    The above is a quote from the website. If that is the reason why we have a lower quality of life, then no, we should not enjoy a better quality of life. Why? We are at war...whether we are for it or not.

    Just my 2 cents...
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  18. #118  
    I personally find it hard to distinguish what people call patriotism and nationalism. I mean I find flag waving disturbingly nationalistic for example. I'm with Bill Hicks on this one:
    "Don't you dare burn that flag, my daddy died for that flag"
    "Really? I bought mine in K-mart."

    I'm proud of living where I live (as discussed in another thread ) but my dictionary says a patriot is a person who vigorously supports his country and its way of life. That's not me, I vigorously support my way of life but not my country's.
    Animo et Fide
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    There is nothing wrong with being proud about your country...or biased.
    There is nothing wrong with being proud about your country. There is something wrong with being biased, though.
    "US cities have slipped in the rankings this year as tighter restrictions have been imposed on entry to the country. Increased security checks on arrivals and departures from the country can be very time-consuming for expatriates."

    The above is a quote from the website. If that is the reason why we have a lower quality of life, then no, we should not enjoy a better quality of life. Why? We are at war...whether we are for it or not.
    The US cities were low in the ranking also before the war, they didn't slip a lot because of the influences you mentioned, as you can see in the report.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Generally speaking there is a very wide variety between UK newspapers and TV channels. Some are traditionally Tory (right-wing), some traditionally Labour (left-wing) and there is also the Murdoch Press, which seems to vary on the whims of Mr Murdoch (but usually right-wing). If you had to get extremes of opinion you should try reading the Daily Mail (I don't know if that's online) and the Guardian (which is online at www.guardian.co.uk). Quite often they will report the same story from a very different angle. People tend to read the paper or watch the TV station that reflects their views but there are some genuinely independent sources, like the Indepedent or Channel 4 news. The BBC are generally pretty unbiased I think, they give politicians from both sides a hard time! I normally feel more informed with the new-sources I read, however the biggest selling newspaper in the UK is the Sun, which is a Murdoch paper designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and show a nice pair of breasts every day. (You can also get the Star for breasts, or the Daily Sport which is essentially a porn newspaper.)
    Pretty much the same story in Australia and the Netherlands...
    I have to say though that the Australian Broadcasting Company (ABC, do not confuse with the american ABC) is tradionally left wing, however in the interviews I see on that channel I am amazed how much effort they put in being unbiased... they drill both parties and will not shy away from hard questions to for example labour party... It is probably one of the most unbiased channels I've seen...
    The NOS in Holland is pretty good in that too..
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