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  1.    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It's taken me a long time reading this thread to say anything. Claudio you and your EU buddies act like a bystander watching a playground bully beat up an innocent child and doing nothing about it. It's much easier to stand back and watch, or even just walk away, but most Americans are responsible people and would intervene. This basic moral background is what drives our government to protect those nations being bullied by others.

    The facts are simple to see I think. The '80s saw the fall of the Soviet Union mostly due to the foreign and defense policies of America. Over 100 million Eastern Europeans were freed from communism as a result of this. Millions of South Koreans would be under the control of North Korea if US troops were not there to help protect them. Millions of Taiwanese have freedom due to the protection of the United States.

    The evil Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic, who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in the Balkans, has been removed due to American-led action. The evil Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, has been removed due to American- and British-led action. Add to that the millions of people in Haiti and Central America that have been kept out of totalitarian governments due to the policies of this country.

    In our long history, we have freed more people than the rest of the world combined. Shame on the US if we become like Canada, France, Germany, Sweden or Switzerland and allow injustice to take place all over the world.
    and by the way, clairegirl, thankyou!! beautifully said. you`ve summed it all up perfectly, and i dont think i can explain my position on our role in the world any more clearly than what you have said here.

    clulup, snerdy, tribalenvy - SEE THIS POST. it says it all.
  2.    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by snerdy
    Edit: oh, you figured it out ^^^^ ...Of course, you have no idea what I was talking about, do you? As I say: confused.


    Hey, that was me! Sheesh.

    snerdy, do you ever get tired of dwelling in the low end of discussions?
    do you consider from time to time actual discourse, or are YOU confused as to how that process takes place? i dont think you are capable of having an intelligent debate without trying to figure out how to attack someone who has views other than your own. you make it obvious with your cheap little snide jabs partnered with absolutely nothing worthwhile to think about.

    do you understand tact, class and intelligent conversation? or do you prefer making comments which are to be expected from crass, vulgar, and low end folks?

    if you can make a solid, tactful, intelligent point without insults, you might get somewhere in life, ya know, buddy?

    but you go around barking around about confusion and bs, worthless stuff, dude. you dont agree with me, hey, welcome to america, jack. do what ya want.

    but ya get pretty much nowhere with the skills your sporting here, pal.
    hey, maybe you are just a little ....confused .... as to how to get along with people...
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It's taken me a long time reading this thread to say anything. Claudio you and your EU buddies act like a bystander watching a playground bully beat up an innocent child and doing nothing about it. It's much easier to stand back and watch, or even just walk away, but most Americans are responsible people and would intervene. This basic moral background is what drives our government to protect those nations being bullied by others.

    The facts are simple to see I think. The '80s saw the fall of the Soviet Union mostly due to the foreign and defense policies of America. Over 100 million Eastern Europeans were freed from communism as a result of this. Millions of South Koreans would be under the control of North Korea if US troops were not there to help protect them. Millions of Taiwanese have freedom due to the protection of the United States.

    The evil Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic, who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in the Balkans, has been removed due to American-led action. The evil Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, has been removed due to American- and British-led action. Add to that the millions of people in Haiti and Central America that have been kept out of totalitarian governments due to the policies of this country.

    In our long history, we have freed more people than the rest of the world combined. Shame on the US if we become like Canada, France, Germany, Sweden or Switzerland and allow injustice to take place all over the world.
    I think the biggest problem is that americans give themselfs too much credit and think they should rule the world.
    It is great that the US is willing to put in the effort to make the world a better place, however it shouldnt become a 'judge dread' (anybody seen that movie).
    Policing the world is a job for the UN, not for the US on its own. Sure the US can be a big driver in the UN, great, however if it starts attacking countries on its own (with or without 'the aliance of the willing', which is imho a joke)
    UN forces with a lot of US troops, great. US trying to be judge and executioner, bad... quite simple...
    Having the biggest army doesnt give you the right to enforce your views on others..

    As to giving yourself too much credit:
    -WWII, a lot of americans seem to think that they liberated europe singlehandedly, conveiniently forgetting the huge effort on the eastern front, without which D-Day wouldnt have had a chance..
    -cold war, without the communist system failing itself and the perestoika led by Gorbatjov and likeminded, we would still be in the cold war..
    -yugoslavia, you'll get credit there, the US drive made this UN action work, however many others were involved too (I personally know a dutch yugoslavia vet. for example) Biggest problem was the burocracy of the UN standing in the way of 'getting the job done' which is a serious issue and should be adresses (but not by bypassing the UN alltogether)
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    It seems to me that treobk214 has done a very good job at keeping things civil.

    And misspelling someone's screen name? Sheesh, who cares!
    It can be a sign of disrespect, imagine if people keep calling you Hoboman...

    But chulup allready said he doesnt care much (which was expected since must call him tulip anyway )
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    from another non-country... Belgium
    do you realise how arrogant these kinds of statements make you sound?

    What makes a country a country in your book? size? population?
    I think it is more than that, culture and history for example. Belgium has more history and culture than the US wil have for years...

    Its like me calling boulder a non-city because it is smaller than Sydney...

    You talk about bullies, but yet you act like one... just a thought..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    snerdy, do you ever get tired of dwelling in the low end of discussions?
    do you consider from time to time actual discourse, or are YOU confused as to how that process takes place? i dont think you are capable of having an intelligent debate without trying to figure out how to attack someone who has views other than your own. you make it obvious with your cheap little snide jabs partnered with absolutely nothing worthwhile to think about.

    do you understand tact, class and intelligent conversation? or do you prefer making comments which are to be expected from crass, vulgar, and low end folks?

    if you can make a solid, tactful, intelligent point without insults, you might get somewhere in life, ya know, buddy?

    but you go around barking around about confusion and bs, worthless stuff, dude. you dont agree with me, hey, welcome to america, jack. do what ya want.

    but ya get pretty much nowhere with the skills your sporting here, pal.
    hey, maybe you are just a little ....confused .... as to how to get along with people...
    OK, both of you act civil... no more personal attacks...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Policing the world is a job for the UN, not for the US on its own.
    Then when are they gonna get off their butts and do something about the Sudan...or do you think that problem needs to be studied more
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Then when are they gonna get off their butts and do something about the Sudan...or do you think that problem needs to be studied more
    I hope soon...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  9. #89  
    I read that the French were gonna send in 200 soldiers to protect the border or something...that should help. 30,000 people are already dead and millions are starving and been forced from their homes.

    See there is no upside for the French. It's not like Iraq where they were trying to protect all the contracts they had with Suddam Hussein by opposing the US in the UN
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I read that the French were gonna send in 200 soldiers to protect the border or something...that should help. 30,000 people are already dead and millions are starving and been forced from their homes.

    See there is no upside for the French. It's not like Iraq where they were trying to protect all the contracts they had with Suddam Hussein by opposing the US in the UN
    I think the cup is half full... It's good that there is a start...
    btw how many troops did the US send?

    p.s. dont you think its a little bit the pot calling the kettle black by attacking france on their oil interests in Iraq? Surely you dont think bush went there just to help out the poor people of iraq? if so why didnt he go to a zillion other places too...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think the cup is half full... It's good that there is a start...
    btw how many troops did the US send?

    p.s. dont you think its a little bit the pot calling the kettle black by attacking france on their oil interests in Iraq? Surely you dont think bush went there just to help out the poor people of iraq? if so why didnt he go to a zillion other places too...

    I would imagine that we wont send any. Actually I do think that the US went there to help out "the poor people of Iraq", and to help protect our country.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I would imagine that we wont send any. Actually I do think that the US went there to help out "the poor people of Iraq", and to help protect our country.
    Personally it is the other way around and a few other reasons we wont know till years later.. we can just guess what the reasoning was...
    The Bush gov. hasnt been the most open gov. I've seen...
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  13. #93  
    p.s why dont you think they won't send any troops to Sudan?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Personally it is the other way around and a few other reasons we wont know till years later.. we can just guess what the reasoning was...
    The Bush gov. hasnt been the most open gov. I've seen...
    Somehow in post-9/11 times, I dont know that "open" is the right thing to be.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    p.s. dont you think its a little bit the pot calling the kettle black by attacking france on their oil interests in Iraq?
    I would hafta check but I think the French sold then nuclear reactors and were helping them build them. Why do they need nuclear power with all that oil??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Somehow in post-9/11 times, I dont know that "open" is the right thing to be.
    mmm you do realize that the terrorists win part of their battle don't you?
    One of their tasks is to upset western society...

    If creating a secretive gov who allmost uses marshal law, I think democracy loses dont you think...

    Sure tactical (military) decisions need to be kept in close doors to avoid losing the element of surprize, however goverment policy should be open to the people that elected them... other wise you get an elected dictator...mmm where have we seen that before?
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    p.s why dont you think they won't send any troops to Sudan?
    Maybe it's time for Canada, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland to help France. You know...make it a UN thing. I think we are busy right now.
    Last edited by clairegrrl; 08/06/2004 at 12:45 AM.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    mmm you do realize that the terrorists win part of their battle don't you?
    One of their tasks is to upset western society...

    If creating a secretive gov who allmost uses marshal law, I think democracy loses dont you think...

    Sure tactical (military) decisions need to be kept in close doors to avoid losing the element of surprize, however goverment policy should be open to the people that elected them... other wise you get an elected dictator...mmm where have we seen that before?
    I have this feeling that you dont know much about the United States. We certainly dont have anything like Marshall law and with representative government and 24 hour cable news the government certainly doesnt operate behind closed doors.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I would hafta check but I think the French sold then nuclear reactors and were helping them build them. Why do they need nuclear power with all that oil??
    What is your beef with the french? you seem some kind of strong dislike for them I cant work out...

    and to bounce your question, why does the US need them with so much oil, why does holland need them with so much natural gas?
    And who are you refering to with 'them' sudan or Iraq? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $sudan$ $has$ $a$ $pretty$ $small$ $oil$ $reserve$...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    empty
    Whats your point?
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