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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    the message we are sending by going on the attack in the middle east now is simple : DONT YOU EVER DO THAT TO US AGAIN.
    EVER! or we will continue to hunt you.
    Trouble is the rest of the world is receiving another message:
    If you attack us we use it as an excuse to attack your neighbour and weaken ourself with internal conflict because of it...
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  2. #22  
    I think you should ask my neighbors who left Canada specifically to get away from their healthcare system. Or my classmate from England who HATES their healthcare system. A friend of mine's family (well to do) donated an MRI machine to a hospital in Canada... it sat unused for 7 (SEVEN) years because the socialized healthcare system couldn't afford to use it.

    While there are DEFINITLY problems with our insurance system, it is infinitly better than others currently in place around the worlds. We must make changes, however, back sliding to socialized health care is NOT the way to do it. Furthermore, any one, US citizen or not, can go to ANY E.R. in the country and be helped. Right, they may not get a plastic surgeon to close their wound, but they will be helped.

    One last idea to leave you with;

    No politician ever gained power without being selfish... but to use that power well one must be selfless... Kinda hard to be both.
    Avatars.... <hrumpphh> I guess, since all the cool kids are doing it.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by dannoz
    I think you should ask my neighbors who left Canada specifically to get away from their healthcare system. Or my classmate from England who HATES their healthcare system. A friend of mine's family (well to do) donated an MRI machine to a hospital in Canada... it sat unused for 7 (SEVEN) years because the socialized healthcare system couldn't afford to use it.

    While there are DEFINITLY problems with our insurance system, it is infinitly better than others currently in place around the worlds. We must make changes, however, back sliding to socialized health care is NOT the way to do it. Furthermore, any one, US citizen or not, can go to ANY E.R. in the country and be helped. Right, they may not get a plastic surgeon to close their wound, but they will be helped.
    I respectfully disagree, the US system seamed to be geared towards the rich minority.
    As I understand it only the 'free clinics' give 'free' help to any patients. And those are in general staffed by less qualified staff with less funding. Ergo yes, you get treated, but not nearly as good...

    In other countries everybody gets more or less the same treatment by the same docters...
    While other systems are far from perfect I cannot agree that the US system is any better...
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  4. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    what i am in agreement with as far as the decision to move on iraq was that we really did need to retaliate and make somebody pay for 9/11.
    I agree wholeheartedly that we needed to send a loud and clear message of DON'T DO THAT AGAIN. But that's why we attacked Afghanistan. Because THAT's where the people who attacked us were.

    Bush's whole team, including a reluctant Cheney, has admitted that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

    As far as Bush being stupid goes, I still think he's not as dumb as he looks. I think he has that cloudy look in his eyes, like Regan did, which convinces people he's not too sharp, and he's a deer in the headlights when he speaks in public, but inside I'm willing to bet he's got a lot of brain power. He's just inexperienced, stubborn, self-serving, and easily manipulated by his father's old crew. Not qualities I generally seek in a leader.

    Clinton, on the other hand, while pretty smug himself, at least has a gift for making you THINK he's not so full of himself. He has this genuine desire to please everyone he comes into contact with, which over the years has honed his skill at bull$hitting to the point where everyone he comes in contact with really DOES end up happy, even when they don't get their way.

    Now, some people call that dishonest and weak. Personally, I think it's one of the best qualities a world leader can have. Make everyone else think we're at least TRYING to be concerned with their problems and issues, while still protecting our best interests ultimately. Make an effort, you know?

    A little diplomacy goes a long way. We can spread a little love into the world without inconveniencing ourselves too much. Sure, we may be able to pretty much do whatever we want with our millitary might, but it would be a heck of a lot easier on all of us if we paid a little more attention to the world's needs. Then others would be more willing to extend a hand and pitch in with our efforts every now and then. Which is good for our troops, our economy, the defecit, etc.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    As far as Bush being stupid goes, I still think he's not as dumb as he looks. I think he has that cloudy look in his eyes, like Regan did, which convinces people he's not too sharp, and he's a deer in the headlights when he speaks in public, but inside I'm willing to bet he's got a lot of brain power. He's just inexperienced, stubborn, self-serving, and easily manipulated by his father's old crew. Not qualities I generally seek in a leader.
    I think you could be right on that one...
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  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by dannoz
    I think you should ask my neighbors who left Canada specifically to get away from their healthcare system. Or my classmate from England who HATES their healthcare system. A friend of mine's family (well to do) donated an MRI machine to a hospital in Canada... it sat unused for 7 (SEVEN) years because the socialized healthcare system couldn't afford to use it.

    While there are DEFINITLY problems with our insurance system, it is infinitly better than others currently in place around the worlds. We must make changes, however, back sliding to socialized health care is NOT the way to do it. Furthermore, any one, US citizen or not, can go to ANY E.R. in the country and be helped. Right, they may not get a plastic surgeon to close their wound, but they will be helped.

    One last idea to leave you with;

    No politician ever gained power without being selfish... but to use that power well one must be selfless... Kinda hard to be both.
    whoa.. now thats enlightening. having an mri but lacking the funds to use it?
    ooo.. thats a blow to how i viewed canada`s healthcare system.

    geez, what is the answer, then? it seems no system is free of serious flaws tha render it to be a failure in many ways.

    i know the us healthcare system IS geared toward the rich. no question. look at how many lower income people are dropped ro denied coverage for important mri`s or crucial heart surgery when it is the moment of truth. only the rich could afford to go over their insurance co`s heads and pay for it anyway.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think you could be right on that one...

    you know, when i saw fahrenheit 911, where they showed bush narcisstically showing off his golf swing as if it was something we were to be in awe of, i was nauseous with him too. i was thinking, oh please, george!

    i get the feeling that bush might have the tendency to beat his chest, behave self-servingly and a little brashly. i can see that too.

    im not a fan of those qualities, but im overlooking these personality quirks in the hopes that what he is trying to do in iraq is honestly for our country`s best interests. maybe he is acting a little cocky in attempts to communicate to people that he has things under control, that he is confident in himself, and that he is tough - all traits he most likely thinks good leaders must have, therefore he tries to show that to america and the world, though he is not as successful with these displays as he would like to be. who knows, i can only speculate. giving him the benefit of the doubt, i can only hope he is trying to take care of america when no one else is or was willing to help.

    we were hit hard, were intent on bin laden in afghanistan but at the same the time had worries about a guy in iraq with a ton of resources, lots of hatred for america, and a nasty habit of human torture.

    yes, i also realize that other countries dont see our occupation of iraq as we might see it. but we have to finish what we started, trying to leave it in better shape than when we came. this is not easy, and there are critics worldwide. understandable. for many reasons. i am hoping, until i am given reason to think otherwise, that bush is trying as best as he knows how to defend us and do what is right, in the plainly spoken manner he carries himself with. that is the person i voted for. that is who i hope is leading us through the times we are in.
  8.    #28  
    regarding cheney`s admission that 911 had no connection with iraq, yes i know about that.

    it also disturbs me that bin laden, the actual spearhead of 911, is still on the prowl, and instead of chasing HIM down, we hunted for ghosts of wmd in iraq.

    THAT does bother me. why they went that road is FAR beyond me, guys. bzizarre tactics in my view. i dont know why bush wouldnt go for the number 1 terrorist in the world rather than people who... well.. may be terrorists...

    i hear that argument loud and clear. i am hoping bush addresses that during the conventions. maybe he feels that since bin laden is so cut off while on the run, that terrorist cells are the more sensible target - the groups of al qaeda rather than one single guy. still, we should have bagged that tall drink o water a long time ago with the kinds of tech, resources and manpower we have. it doesnt make sense.
  9.    #29  
    clinton's amiable nature was an attribute to foreign relations. its like sales. people buy something if the salesman is likeable, or convinces them they are the genuine article.

    reagan had this quality as well. he was able to make the enemy like him, and im doing so brought an end to the cold war.

    clinton does have a reassuring way about him. it was the monica scandal that cast doubt onto where his true priorities were, and whether or not what he was telling you was true or just an attempt to be liked or look good in front of the camera or the audience. that was where the line blurred with him.

    but its interesting to find out what he contributed during his presidency. are there other positive contributions made during his adminstration? or attempts to modify the systems we have in place now?
  10.    #30  
    i think dannoz said it well. that its rarely possible to gain power without being selfish in someways, and that its kind of hard to be all things to all folks.
    you got that right!
    backsliding to socialized healthcare isnt the answer if we not guaranteed the best care we can get. agree with that too. maybe our system isnt the inferior mess i thought it was relative to other countries. good points.
  11.    #31  
    i think dannoz said it well. that its rarely possible to gain power without being selfish in someways, and that its kind of hard to be all things to all folks.
    you got that right!
    backsliding to socialized healthcare isnt the answer if we not guaranteed the best care we can get. maybe THIS is the reason hillary was blocked from trying to institute such a system!!! aha!! maybe our system, while not great by any means, isnt the inferior mess i thought it was relative to other countries. good points.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    what i am in agreement with as far as the decision to move on iraq was that we really did need to retaliate and make somebody pay for 9/11.

    the message we are sending by going on the attack in the middle east now is simple : DONT YOU EVER DO THAT TO US AGAIN.
    EVER! or we will continue to hunt you.
    Treobk214, PLEASE stop confusing Iraq and 9/11 - PLEASE? If there were any connections between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaida, they were very, very weak, of no significance as far 9/11 is concerned for sure. That was the result of a very thorough review done by a bipartisan commitee of leading members of your parliament. Afghanistan and the Taliban were an entirely different thing (Afghanistan isn't even part of the Middle East) and I perfectly agree with you that it was a good thing to show strength there.

    You were asking what makes Clinton special? From an outside view, I think he is bright, warm, he has a good sense of humour, he knows about life outside of the elite, he has sympathy for the people, he CARES FOR PEOPLE. He is not perfect (also not in a political sense), but he tried honestly. Note that Bush has none of the positive sides mentioned.

    It is also true that he was lucky regarding economy, that he was president in a prosperous time, but still, others would have done worse even then.

    It is certainly also the contrast to Bush that makes Clinton special. Did you ever notice how Bush waves to people? You know he means to wave, but all his body language says is "Stay away! Stop! Go away!". In addition, he says stupid things like going on a crusade (THE most stupid thing you can say in this conflict), he does stupid things (like behaving arrogantly, going to war with not enough soldiers to prevent chaos in Iraq, treating humans like animals in Guantanamo, etc.).
    Last edited by clulup; 08/05/2004 at 04:48 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    we were hit hard, were intent on bin laden in afghanistan but at the same the time had worries about a guy in iraq with a ton of resources, lots of hatred for america, and a nasty habit of human torture.
    Yes, lots of hatred for America... the problem with Bush is that most of his actions INCREASE hatred for the US (behaving arrogantly, Guantanamo, being Sharon's best friend, not being able to control the mess in Iraq...).

    Oh, and speaking about "nasty habits of human torture"... do you remember the pictures from Abu Ghraib? That was not a good example of how to decrease hatred in the Middle East and be respected in the world either. Arrogance -> not enough resources -> not enough control -> mess.

    And while the US are deadlocked in Iraq (no WMD), North Korea seems to have achieved a state in which their nuclear arms can reach the US (according to a Jane's Defence Weekly article)...
    Last edited by clulup; 08/05/2004 at 04:58 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #34  
    Calm down Clulup! I agree with most of the sentiments you have but you're in danger of turning this into a mud-slinging thread.
    Animo et Fide
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Calm down Clulup! I agree with most of the sentiments you have but you're in danger of turning this into a mud-slinging thread.
    What, no mud-slinging today? Ok, I have tried to write it A BIT nicer...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #36  
    Oh, and speaking about "nasty habits of human torture"... do you remember the pictures from Abu Ghraib?

    Well... since it's been said I now feel compelled to respond.

    I simply can not fathom how anyone can use that argument to deride the United States, its current government and as an extension the citizenry which make up its population... and NOT use the remainder of their breath to condemn the BEHEADINGS of civilians?!?! One might respond with the sentiment that… those are only the fringe fundamentalists, well then where is the peaceful remainder of that body? Why does that VERY SILENT majority not denounce those few and their actions in Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia, India/Pakistan, Iraq, Israel, Iran, Kosovo, Nigeria, Sudan, and the Philippines.

    Sorry to wander so far a field with this response, back to healthcare. As it currently stands in the US, anyone (save foreign graduates) must have a 4 year college degree, 4 years of medical school, and at the very least 3 years of residency… 11 years of training @ ~120 hours/week (nowadays 80 hours/week) before they are allowed to practice medicine. My point being that any physician, even at the free clinic will be well prepared. As an interesting side note... I have worked in Private, Government, Educational hospitals and free clinics. I have NEVER seen anyone turned away. Oddly enough, those same physicians I see working at the “regular” hospitals are often times the very same ones who work at the free clinics.
    Avatars.... <hrumpphh> I guess, since all the cool kids are doing it.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by dannoz
    I simply can not fathom how anyone can use that argument to deride the United States, its current government and as an extension the citizenry which make up its population... and NOT use the remainder of their breath to condemn the BEHEADINGS of civilians?!?!
    I didn't deride anything or anybody. I pointed out the fact that due to arrogance, not enough resources, not enough control (and training) it became possible that some US citizens behaved really bad (if it wasn't part of an interrogation plan, which wouldn't make it better, right?). There is no doubt that due to these events hatered against the US has increased, or do you not agree? The image of the US has suffered a lot due to those pictures.

    I am aware of the fact that the great majority of US citicens do not agree with torturing these prisoners, maybe even Bush and Rumsfeld don't, though I am not really sure about that.

    Why do you think it is mandatory to condemn the beheadings of hostages by terrorists when I mention the behaviour of some US soldiers in Iraq? The beheadings are FAR worse, but what has one thing got to do with the other? If I say policemen should not beat up arrested people, do I have to mention that I find it bad that murderers kill people in the same sentence??
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #38  
    You're right in that there is not always a need for a tit-for-tat instinctual responce. The sole reason for my making that point is the feeling I get from foreign (yes... I have been out of the US) media/citizens and domestic media coverage that everything the US does is horrendous. While at the same time NO ONE seems to be willing to say the same of those with whom we currently find our selves at war.
    Avatars.... <hrumpphh> I guess, since all the cool kids are doing it.
  19. #39  
    In apology for assisting in the hijacking of this thread... My thoughts on Clinton;

    Someone already mentioned his charisma and looks as a reason for his popularity. I would second that. Furthermore, I put forth a second possibility... that he more wholey represents the current cultural environment of entitlement and absolution of personal responsibility.
    Avatars.... <hrumpphh> I guess, since all the cool kids are doing it.
  20.    #40  
    chulup, for god's sake, if you simply go back and read what ive written, i said it clearly that it was bizarre to me why we went into iraq before bagging bin laden. okay!?

    i didnt tie 911 to iraq, so take it easy and ease that choke back in ok, comrade!?

    i DID say we needed to respond to what was done to us in a strong and definitive manner to make someone pay for what was done to us.

    iraq did not have the wmds we suspected they had, and we are in a quagmire over there because of our invasion, BUT, the message we are TRYING tosend to the enemy is that you cannot pull your terrorism garbage on us, because we will not sit and take it. we wont lie and wait for you to do it again. consequences are coming and we will occupy your lands to root out the terrorists that did this. you dont like that we are in iraq, well thats a damn shame. those people shouldnt have attacked us then.

    iraq wasnt what we suspected, but you know, hindsight for some people is ALWAYS 20/20.
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