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  1.    #1  
    just saw mike moore's documentary on how the US seems to have more murders by guns per year than any other country!
    I know what I've said about moore, but you know, this film really caught me. his gist was that thru media and govt, we seem to be spreading fear and aggression in america. how we supposedly funded the taliban and trained osama bin laden to fight the soviets, and later bin laden used the training to send jets into nyc, how we funded hussein to fight the iranians, how noriega disobeyed the us so we took him out just because he didn't agree with us. I mean, I have to be honest, I was floored!
    us news coverage centers around crime and epidemics rather than constructive, positive efforts in america. canada supposedly doesn't focus on crime, so they have less to fear.
    no one in canada locks their doors! they have access to guns as we do, but they rarely ever have crimes of murder by handgun or violence. 11,000 gun murders in the us last year, in canada, I think it was around 65.
    is this true? im skeptical bc of how moore may distort things, but I can't help but wonder if this is
    I know he been known to skew facts but this really made me think. what's everybody's take on this film? this makes you wonder if we really are the good guys here for gods sake! a lot to write here, I know, but wow, there was a lot to think about!
  2. #2  
    Part of the problem as I see it is the lack of punishment for crimes in this country. This is not a comparison to anywhere else.

    You can kill someone here and get a few years in prison if you even get caught. A lot of crime here occurs because there isnt a perceived penalty. Inner city gangs which commit alot violent crime arent even afraid of the police. Why? Because they get out in a few hours/days if they even get caught. PLEASE refrain from trying to jutify inner city crime due to a disadvantaged lifestyle. Being a criminal is a choice, regardless of upbringing.

    Unfortunately B for C is filled with false facts and moore's manipulations of the truth, so it it hard for me to take seriously. One fact as an example. A speech by Charlton Heston to the NRA that appears to have no sympathy for the events of columbine. Although moore doesnt point this out and it's clearly not evident because of editing, the speech was given BEFORE columbine even happened.

    If criminals werent coddled in our justice system, there would likely be less crime. I obey the law because I was taught to respect it as a child and also that there are consequences for doing wrong. Too bad all parents cant say they've taught their children that way. Well they can say it, but the proof is evident that they havent really.
  3. #3  
    Woof, the US has one of the highest prison populations per capita of any democracy. By European standards your system is harsh, not mild, yet we also have much less gun crime.
    Animo et Fide
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Part of the problem as I see it is the lack of punishment for crimes in this country. This is not a comparison to anywhere else.
    I wanted to write the same as PeterBrown. I also don't know any other Western Democracy that still uses death penalty. Nations like China, Iran, Sudan, Saudi-Arabia, Syria and Indonesia still practice it, but no other Western democracy, to my knowledge.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Woof, the US has one of the highest prison populations per capita of any democracy. By European standards your system is harsh, not mild, yet we also have much less gun crime.
    Ya but a prison system that gives you better accomidations than many have outside, access to a free education, a fitness facility,cable tv and many other amenities is hardly a deterent. If prison were miserable, fewer would want to go there. But unfortuntely in this country the liberals have done such a good job, you cant be treated badly even if you butchered a bunch of children. Criminals here often have far more rights than their victims.

    One example. A man surprised a burglar in his house and hit him with a baseball bat because he feared for his families lives. The man was prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon. The burglar then sued him for damages. And you say our system is harsh? I beg to differ.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Woof, the US has one of the highest prison populations per capita of any democracy. By European standards your system is harsh, not mild, yet we also have much less gun crime.
    I think the issue with prison populations is the % serving time for non-violent offenses, such as drug possession.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    no one in canada locks their doors! they have access to guns as we do, but they rarely ever have crimes of murder by handgun or violence. 11,000 gun murders in the us last year, in canada, I think it was around 65.
    is this true? im skeptical bc of how moore may distort things, but I can't help but wonder if this is
    Well, surely someone in Canada locks their doors. As for the gun murders, http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/legal01.htm says 149 were killed by "shooting" which probably means guns (perhaps a few thrown in for poorly shot basketballs? -- not meant as an insult a la the Simpsons!, just a bad pun). Quite low!
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Criminals here often have far more rights than their victims.
    That is not true at all! I'm by no means a liberal, but you have to remember the context in which you claim "rights." Every person has the same protections against the actions of other and the government. By definition a "victim" has had their rights violated, usually by an individual. However, in a criminal proceeding the victim is represented as/by the state, and therefore cannot violate the criminals rights because the state is ultimately controlled by the populace, not an individual, which is the case for a criminal.

    That may be semantic nit-picking, but when you communicate with language, it's important to get things right.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I wanted to write the same as PeterBrown. I also don't know any other Western Democracy that still uses death penalty. Nations like China, Iran, Sudan, Saudi-Arabia, Syria and Indonesia still practice it, but no other Western democracy, to my knowledge.
    Israel, though only in rare circumstances (according to Amnesty International).

    My view of the death penalty: It is entirely appropriate for a representative, legitimate governmental authority to deprive someone of their life provided they have overwhelming evidence, public proceedings, fair jury or jury-like trials and ample appeal opportunities should the situation warrant. However, due to the permanence of the penalty and the inevitable fallibility of evidence, capital punishment should not be used absent a confession.
  10. #10  
    Confessions are no more reliable than any other evidence.
    Animo et Fide
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Israel, though only in rare circumstances (according to Amnesty International).
    The last execution in Israel was in 1962, and it is banned for ordinary crimes (apart from e.g. war crimes), so you cannot say Israel practices capital punishment. Japan is one of the rare exceptions but not really a "Western" democracy. Most other countries that still practice death penalty are states like Liberia, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mongolia, Morocco, etc.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Well, surely someone in Canada locks their doors. As for the gun murders, http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/legal01.htm says 149 were killed by "shooting" which probably means guns (perhaps a few thrown in for poorly shot basketballs? -- not meant as an insult a la the Simpsons!, just a bad pun). Quite low!
    Canada has
    1 homicide per 54'000 people

    Switzerland has
    1 homicide per 99'000 inhabitants
    (http://internet.bap.admin.ch/d/aktue...PKS_2003_d.pdf)

    The US have
    1 homicide per 18'181 inhabitants.
    (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm#longterm)

    Striking, these differences... capital punishment doesn't seem to help a lot in preventing homicide.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup

    Striking, these differences... capital punishment doesn't seem to help a lot in preventing homicide.
    Thats because 'capital punishment' in the US is rarely swift. Conviction followed by deathrow with 10+ years of appeals. How is that a deterent?

    If punishment was carried out swiftly, it would be much more of a consequence.
  14. #14  
    Remember, crime was very low in Saddam's Iraq and in the USSR. (Of course, there were other problems living in those countries.) Severely restricted freedom helps lower crime. Expanded freedoms alow losers to commit crimes.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Remember, crime was very low in Saddam's Iraq and in the USSR. (Of course, there were other problems living in those countries.) Severely restricted freedom helps lower crime. Expanded freedoms alow losers to commit crimes.
    Pure Genious!
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Remember, crime was very low in Saddam's Iraq and in the USSR. (Of course, there were other problems living in those countries.) Severely restricted freedom helps lower crime. Expanded freedoms alow losers to commit crimes.

    One must also point out that even with freedom there must be consequences for actions not acceptable to the society as a whole. Consequences does not mean coddling by the state and making excuses for the actions based on someones upbringing. All actions are based on choice. A person can choose to obey the laws of society or not. If a person thinks a law unjust, disobeying it is not the way to protest the injustice. All people are capable of making choices and will make good choices if they are taught when they are young that bad choices have bad results.

    Why have laws if there is no punishment for breaking them?
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Remember, crime was very low in Saddam's Iraq and in the USSR. (Of course, there were other problems living in those countries.) Severely restricted freedom helps lower crime. Expanded freedoms alow losers to commit crimes.
    Of course it is sad that in Switzerland we have no democracy, no freedom of speech, that we cannot leave the country at will or work in a job we chose, but hey, a five times lower homicide rate certainly is worth all those shortcomings..................................
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Confessions are no more reliable than any other evidence.
    That's a pretty broad statement. Personally, I believe a confession is more reliable than a lot of other evidence. Psychic evidence, for instance.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Switzerland has
    1 homicide per 99'000 inhabitants
    (http://internet.bap.admin.ch/d/aktue...PKS_2003_d.pdf)
    Striking, these differences... capital punishment doesn't seem to help a lot in preventing homicide.
    That link could be a romance novel for all I know. As for your conclusion, that is incredibly presumptive as you no doubt know. You have to assume a whole lot. Of course, absent random, controlled experiments you cannot do real research, but according to your logic, speaking English also causes people to kill one another.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Of course it is sad that in Switzerland we have no democracy, no freedom of speech, that we cannot leave the country at will or work in a job we chose, but hey, a five times lower homicide rate certainly is worth all those shortcomings..................................
    It's also worth pointing out that every adult male has a gun, correct?
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