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  1.    #1  
    I have recently been reprimanded for insulting and attacking others in two recently closed threads. I would like to understand further the definitions of these two things in the hope that in the future I will be able to avoid repeating them.

    Main question on both items. Is it an insult or an attack if the person to whom I am 'speaking' takes it that way? Or can it be determined as an insult or attack by a third party not participating in the discussion?
    Maybe I am alone in my point of view here but it seems to me if the person to whom I am speaking is not bothered by my comments specifically directed to them, whats the problem? If the attack or insult can be determined by a third party then any comment at all is subject to that ruling. If someone is having a bad day they could potentially reprimand everyone for what they perceived as insults and attacks. With the exception of the obvious swearing, racial slurs and other common unacceptable behaviours, shouldnt a lively conversation be encouraged. It seems awfully politically correct to punish the group because one person could possibly be insulted by something that wasnt even directed at them. Really puts a damper on the free speech thing, IMHO. I guess it's the nature of a moderated forum to be subject to the rulings of the mods. I guess I just figure if the people in the discussion arent complaining and arent blatantly throwing discretion to the wind, why is action necessary?

    I'd appreciate hearaing from others on this subject. Say what you want, I promise not to be insulted.


    I'd also like to say, this is a great place to be and I apprecite what everyone adds to the community!
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2. #2  
    I lurked on the particular thread that you single handedly shut down.

    I am staunchly conservative, agreed with your point of view, and thouroughly enjoyed the thread. I cringed, however, each time I read one of your posts. You were just not able to make a point without including an insult, even when a poster with an opposing point of view attempted to respond with an included olive branch.

    You really need to learn how to argue your point of view while respecting the views of others. I know you think others take your comments the wrong way and that reaction to your comments is their problem not yours, but as Rush says "Words mean things". If you say a group is moronic then your words have meaning and apply to the individuals of that group and you have just alienated those individuals to even consider your point of view.

    Try going back over your posts and rewriting them for yourself, crossing out any comments expressing your opinion of the character or intelligence of those who disagreed with you. That alone would have made your comments much more credible and perhaps even persuasive.
  3.    #3  
    Thanks john, i'll do that.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #4  
    *This* thread is very impressive. I didn't see the one referred to.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Galahad
    *This* thread is very impressive. I didn't see the one referred to.
    if you are referring to me, i admit i became heated in some of these threads when it came to politics. i have since apologized for making broad generalizations and particularly scathing remarks from time to time.

    i am making it a point to keep that element out of the picture in the future and to stick to whats relevant - the facts, should topics like these come around again.

    its easy to become overheated over such issues. i can now see that its wiser to show restraint while making points rather than venting your feelings as you make them. so with that said, i am owning up to where i have been responsible here.

    the moderators have a tough job here and have handled volatile situations pretty well i think. so here`s to a return to civilized communication and friendly exchanges of ideas. lets put the past behind us and move on in a positive direction.
  6. #6  
    My 2 pence: If you're actually trying to persuade someone that you're right and they're wrong then you've already got a hill to climb. You can make that hill smaller by getting them to like you, or you can make it bigger by telling them they're wrong. If you end goal is to persuade people remember that you're dealing with people, not logic machines.
    Animo et Fide
  7. #7  
  8. #8  
    Woof, you started it.

    As much as I agreed and disagreed with in the discussion, things didn't get bad until nuking Iraq was mentioned in the context that it was. Joke or not, that wasn't good.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    My 2 pence: If you're actually trying to persuade someone that you're right and they're wrong then you've already got a hill to climb. You can make that hill smaller by getting them to like you, or you can make it bigger by telling them they're wrong. If you end goal is to persuade people remember that you're dealing with people, not logic machines.
    true
  10.    #10  
    WARNING The author of this post has a history of posting abuse. If you are easily offended, please skip ahead. You may find the content of this post to be offensive even though it is not the authors intention to be so. Read at your own risk!!


    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland216
    Woof, you started it.

    As much as I agreed and disagreed with in the discussion, things didn't get bad until nuking Iraq was mentioned in the context that it was. Joke or not, that wasn't good.
    And even though I explained the reason I said that, no one can seem to get past that. I was not for a second suggesting that nuking Iraq was ok. You talk about context. I was just making a point that Kerry was undeserving of my vote no matter what. A good many of the people here seem to react emotionally to the verbage of a post instead of looking at the point of the post. If I had said that I would vote for Kerry even if it was proven he had slept with all the senate pages, would it have garnered the same reaction? I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    To be honest after you started name calling I skipped the rest of your post...
    see told you that it would work against you...

    So next time if you stay polite you will get an answer..
    This statement makes my point quite well I think. I personally dont get offended by what people write on here or anywhere else because they are just words, just someone's opinion. They have no bearing on who I am.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by jpahl
    my 2 pence worth:

    There's a difference between jokes between sparing partners (ie involving chickens and dragons) on general topics and coming out with what I felt were pretty strong comments about an individual's character.
    And really what does anyone here know about anyone character? Most of us hide behind anonymous names and dont know anyone else here personally. How can what anyone says here be taken seriously in the context of real life? If a person is really affected by what some anonymous jerk on an internet forum, maybe they have other issues. How do you get through the line at the grocery store of you cant handle what goes on here? The person who has breakdown because of what was said on TC has other issues.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    WARNINGAnd even though I explained the reason I said that, no one can seem to get past that. I was not for a second suggesting that nuking Iraq was ok.
    I think the misunderstanding stems from the following: If you say you support a person (Bush) even if he nukes a nation, then it sounds very much as if you support nuking a nation, or as if you do not care about the fact whether this person has killed all the inhabitants of that nation.... I personally would never support anybody who uses nuclear arms to kill millions of Iraqis, no matter how great he is otherwise.

    You talk about context. I was just making a point that Kerry was undeserving of my vote no matter what. A good many of the people here seem to react emotionally to the verbage of a post instead of looking at the point of the post. If I had said that I would vote for Kerry even if it was proven he had slept with all the senate pages, would it have garnered the same reaction? I doubt it.
    Sleeping with senate pages is just as bad as killing millions with nuclear arms? For you maybe, but not for me.
















    P.S.: Woof, regarding your question about my previous avatar: please don't tell anybody - It wasn't really my picture. Actually, I look much better in reality, but with slightly smaller muscles probably....
  13. #13  
    The political debate in this country has turned the average voter off for two primary reasons, imo. First, the fact that tons of money comes flying into the political debate & trying to affect the outcome. Most voters feel that their politicians no longer represent, except on a local basis. This coming from someone who is active in local politics (no, don't hold elected office). People tell me that they will vote for the local races but not state or federal races for reason # 2. The rhetoric in politics has sunk to an abysmal low.

    I am one of those guys that does not fit into a neat political spot. I like ideas from many parties ... but the personal attacks, especially from the right, have kept me from voting for a republican for almost 10 yrs. The President's ads are all negative ... and as far as Rush goes, he can't voice his opinion on what someone says without calling them a moron or some other personal insult. It is just time for everyone to step back, take a deep breath and THINK before they open their mouths.

    I agree with Woof that if something he writes is not offensive to the person he is addressing ... then we all have to let them work things out. But, Woof, keep in the back of your mind that a great message can be polluted by the way we send it.

    Some things are offensive to just about everyone ... and although we are free to say (just about) anything ... there will always be a price to pay if it is said to the wrong people.

    OK, so it was more like a dime than .02 ...
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  14. #14  
    I think no one will win anyone over to their side when they promote hatred of others, call them names, etc, because you are not even allowing your audience to think about what you said, you already give them the bottom line.

    Instead if you point out problems, and leave it to others to draw conclusions, you can allow some audience participation and force them to think about it, which is more effective persuation technique. For example, if you can build a logical argument which shows how someone acted stupidly in a repeated manner, you don't need to call them a moron, your audience will think this already. That way you are not the bad guy, and you get your point across.

    I am sending this out to everyone, not just woof, I am also reminding myself to do this too.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by jpahl
    Hear, hear!
    I respect what you have to say, but I politely disagree with you, here's why. Is it really necessary to have to stroke the person you are talking to before you give your point of view? Maybe we need an icon for a bouquet of daisies.

    Maybe I am alone on this but I just as soon hear your point. Do you really want me to say something that you know I really dont mean?
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I think no one will win anyone over to their side when they promote hatred of others, call them names, etc, because you are not even allowing your audience to think about what you said, you already give them the bottom line.
    I love the phrase "promote hatred of others". Last time you called it hate mongering. You throw that phrase around alot. Again I ask you, why do you think that a person who disagrees with YOU to be spreading hate? This is a question I have asked twice. Will you please answer it? Also I have issue with "allowing your audience". I am not even going to get into it though. I'll just end up saying something that will get me in trouble.

    Instead if you point out problems, and leave it to others to draw conclusions, you can allow some audience participation and force them to think about it, which is more effective persuation technique. For example, if you can build a logical argument which shows how someone acted stupidly in a repeated manner, you don't need to call them a moron, your audience will think this already. That way you are not the bad guy, and you get your point across.
    I dont really care if I am perceived as the bad guy. As I understand it as long as do not attack or name call the persons also participating in the discussion with me, and of course avoid predetermined unacceptable language ( I will not circumvent the system profanity filter in the future) then I am free to express my opinion. I am wondering why you have not chastised the posters who have called our president an ***** or something else equally negative.

    Let me ask you this. Do you know anyone who swears like a sailor but is otherwise a nice person who company and opinion you enjoy otherwise? Have you ever asked them to tone it down abit around you but they cant seem to? Did you then stop associating with them altogether?

    Regarding Moron. I used that moron refering to Michael Moore. I am allowed to call him a moron if I think he is a moron. Am I supposed to think of the feelings of everyone who has every been called a moron and avoid that term so I dont reopen an old wound? Well I am not going to worry about that. Sorry if that makes me a horrible person. What about the word *****. I found 405 posts with that word in it. Havent seen you comment about that anywhere. I did also notice that you were capable of your own "hate filled" post
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I peeled off the sticker a while ago, and one thing I noticed is that when I try to upgrade the Palm Desktop, those bastards at PalmOne are requesting the serial number (which is on the sticker) before they download the "free" desktop upgrade. I got around it by going back to a previous email link I had received from them, but still it just pisses me off that they do this. I recommend for anyone who contemplates peeling the sticker to save it as has been mentioned above.
    ******* is ok but moron is not? Now I am not going to give you too much crap because I could tell you were frustrated and pissed off about your phone. And I noticed no one else was offended by your comment. That particular incident was exactly the same as my calling Moore a moron, at least in my mind.


    Well anyway, I am going refrain from implying my fellow posters are of lesser intelligence and what ever other bad things I can come up with. I would just ask one thing in return. If I present a point in my argument, respond to what I said, dont throw a bunch of meaningless junk in there, dont add things to make it look like I said something else and I'll do the same for you. Oh and please please please answer my questions. How am I supposed to learn to understand your side of the debate if I am unable to get more information. Yes even if you think they sound sarcastic.
  17. #17  
    Is it really necessary to have to stroke the person you are talking to before you give your point of view? Maybe we need an icon for a bouquet of daisies.

    Maybe I am alone on this but I just as soon hear your point. Do you really want me to say something that you know I really dont mean?
    All you're being asked to do is have respect for other people's beliefs/opinions, not to agree with them. Why wouldn't you mean it? Do you mean that you don't respect the opinions of others? Don't you see the difference between respecting and agreeing with?
    Animo et Fide
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    All you're being asked to do is have respect for other people's beliefs/opinions, not to agree with them. Why wouldn't you mean it? Do you mean that you don't respect the opinions of others? Don't you see the difference between respecting and agreeing with?

    Ya that sounded stupid. Was on the phone when I was typing that and it didnt really come out right.

    Hell now I dont know what I was trying to say there. Ya I see the difference and I was not trying to say I dont respect someone elses opinion. I was trying to multitask and it failed. Sorry.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I respect what you have to say, but I politely disagree with you, here's why. Is it really necessary to have to stroke the person you are talking to before you give your point of view? Maybe we need an icon for a bouquet of daisies.

    Maybe I am alone on this but I just as soon hear your point. Do you really want me to say something that you know I really dont mean?
    All well and good on this, but I have to agree with Woof.

    Last week someone came into my office and started the conversation with that old universal, "You're probably not going to like what I have to say."

    I gave her a blank stare and simply stated, "Well, then, you probably won't like my response either."

    She became upset because she said I was the one provoking an argument! I simply replied that if she was warning me that what she had to say was going to upset me, I wanted to give her fair warning about what the outcome of her comment would be. But, regardless, she was going to say it anyway. So, IMHO, turn about is fair play. In the end, she said it without thinking and really didn't mean it. So, why say it, if you don't mean it.

    Just spit it out and let the chips fall where they may. I'm a big boy and if I don't like what you say, I'll let you know. Maybe we will all be lucky and I will find that "kind and loving voice" I seem to misplace when people are being a little in my face to start things out.
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Last week someone came into my office and started the conversation with that old universal, "You're probably not going to like what I have to say."

    I gave her a blank stare and simply stated, "Well, then, you probably won't like my response either."

    She became upset because she said I was the one provoking an argument! I simply replied that if she was warning me that what she had to say was going to upset me, I wanted to give her fair warning about what the outcome of her comment would be. But, regardless, she was going to say it anyway. So, IMHO, turn about is fair play. In the end, she said it without thinking and really didn't mean it. So, why say it, if you don't mean it.
    I think your reply to this person was more then fair, you basically said the same thing she said....

    But as for the topic at hand, you dont have to say you respect the other, but it is good form to do especially in a heated discussion where sometime it can seem respect for the opponent gets lost.

    I think it was in dances with wolves where there was a scene where a native american tribe was having a discussion. The rules were that before you say what is wrong with somebody or their argument you had to say something positive about the opponent.
    I thought that was a nice way of discussing. It forces you to see the positive side too, too many discussion have a downwards spiral...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
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