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  1. #41  
    LOL, I think it's safe to say that on some level or another: ALL POLITIANS are liars. I guess they have to be or they would never be elected!

    But this whole war issue in Iraq has put a bad taste in my mouth. TOOO many lives have been lost, families and loved ones have been devestated in the name of war and WMD. And if it is due to misrepresentation or lies, then that is a very, very sad and disgusting statement about our government and our executive leaders.

    We are dealing with people who probably hate us and we are trying to liberate them. Right. You would think we have no problems in our own country. Why not liberate the drug edipemic, liberate the inferior public schools, feed our own poor and create more jobs for the jobless.

    But these things as it seem would be impossible to do, so just Stop the War Games and BRING our TROOPS Home!
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  2. #42  
    I'm sure people here are smart enough to google! Anyway, here are some quotes from the Bush admin.

    http://www.activeopposition.com/WMD.htm

    I have no leaning this way or that way, but do know when to call a spade a spade.
  3. #43  
    And remember, whether it is Bush himself or someone in his administration, it is still Bush who would have to take the blame. The buck stops there.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by zackz
    I'm sure people here are smart enough to google! Anyway, here are some quotes from the Bush admin.

    http://www.activeopposition.com/WMD.htm

    I have no leaning this way or that way, but do know when to call a spade a spade.
    There you go Heberman, lies or not?
    Animo et Fide
  5. #45  
    Basically, imagine that Rush Limbaugh hijacked a film crew for a few months, but before he started shooting, figured he'd switch viewpoints and make a movie.

    Just like Rush, there are many elements of fact in this movie, but also a lot of showmanship and whining. Doesn't mean it's treasonous (just like Rush in the Clinton years) and CERTAINLY doesn't mean it's bad for the country. So long as people see it as what it is, the movie is great.

    Of course I have not seen it, and do not intend to. Just as I don't support crazy right-wingers (again, they often speak the truth, like Mr. Moore), I do not support this effort which aims to antagonize before it informs.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by zackz
    I'm sure people here are smart enough to google! Anyway, here are some quotes from the Bush admin.

    http://www.activeopposition.com/WMD.htm

    I have no leaning this way or that way, but do know when to call a spade a spade.
    On the site mentioned there is an interesting link to a BBC documentary about the rise of the Bush family and George W. Bush in particular. Looks really interesting and less biased than Moore:
    http://www.activeopposition.com/audio-video.htm
    Last edited by clulup; 06/30/2004 at 11:29 AM.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I still haven't seen anyone actually identify a single lie by Bush. Just repeating "he lied, everyone knows it" doesn't actually show any lie.
    The example I'd give is his quote "they hate us because they hate freedom". There have been many surveys of global attitudes to america over the last 2 years and all have them have showed that while there is a long list of perceived negatives about america freedom isn't one of them - its on the list of postives. The long list of negatives about america includes issues such as the US's support for the oppression of the Palestinians. If the US doesn't want to be hated (and I honestly don't know if this administration cares) it should first find out why, and so at least a bit of honesty from the president on this issue would be a good thing.

    But then Moore isn't much better on the Palestinian issue either!
  8.    #48  
    In today's WSJ there is an article titled: "'Fahrenheit 9/11' is Raising Conservatives' Temperature."
    Sorry for the long article here, but there's no direct link for it since you have to be a paid member to read it. Keep in mind that everything below has been quoted from the Journal (it is not a personal opinion):
    Conservative anger over "Fahrenheit 9/11," the anti-Bush movie by filmmaker Michael Moore, is reaching a fever pitch -- but figuring out how to prevent the movie from becoming an even wider cultural phenomenon is dividing the political right.
    Some activists want to confront the movie's controversial assertions or even stop theaters from showing it; others, including the White House, are keeping a low profile to avoid hyping the film and thus broadening its potential audience four months before Election Day.
    The Bush administration has kept largely silent about Mr. Moore's film, which portrays the president as out-of-touch, accuses him of connections with the bin Laden family and questions whether he is beholden to Saudi interests. A Republican National Committee spokeswoman says the committee believes the movie won't affect voters' decisions come November and doesn't plan to dignify it with a response. The White House has declined to comment, saying it doesn't "do movie reviews."
    "The eagle doesn't talk to the fly," says Keith Appell, a Republican consultant and the senior vice president of Creative Response Concepts, a public-relations firm based in Alexandria, Va.
    Some eaglets -- conservative groups operating without sanction from the White House -- have started a late-game campaign to remove Mr. Moore's movie from theaters and its advertisements from television sets. Move America Forward, a new conservative group based in Sacramento, Calif., and formed to support U.S. troops abroad, lobbied movie houses last week to ban the film and urged viewers to boycott it. Citizens United, a conservative grass-roots group based in Washington, filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission last week saying the movie's promotional ads, if they continue to run past the end of July, will violate campaign-finance laws.
    Such moves may be playing right into Mr. Moore's hands -- and his pocketbook. "I want to thank all the right-wing organizations out there who tried to stop this movie either through harassment campaigns, going to the FEC to get our ads removed from television, or the things said on television," says the filmmaker. "They have only encouraged more people to go and see it."
    Mr. Moore points to explosive opening weekend box-office sales to show that the movie is reaching beyond its presumed liberal audience. It brought in $23.9 million in U.S. box-office ticket sales in a nationwide opening this past weekend that smashed previous records for a feature-length documentary film. Including the take from its preview showings in New York last week, and Monday's ticket sales, the movie raked in a total of $28.5 million.
    The movie showed best in liberal strongholds such as New York, which accounted for 12.25% of ticket sales, and Los Angeles, with 11.25%, but it also opened well in Peoria, Ill., the quintessential bellwether city, where theaters were sold out.
    Key to the movie's long-term success -- and its ability to go beyond preaching to its liberal base -- will be how the movie performs this weekend when the number of screens is expanded to 1,700, up from 868 last weekend. States such as Mississippi, for example, had only one location showing the movie last weekend. Next weekend, the state will have five or six.
    Considerable media attention this week is also likely to draw a bigger pro-Bush audience wanting to know what all the fuss is about. Attempting to build the hype further, the distributors are planning new television spots to run later this week, featuring interviews of moviegoers as they exit theaters.
    Most Republican strategists maintain the movie will have scant political effect beyond those voters already committed to ousting Mr. Bush. Behind the scenes, though, the Bush administration debated how to spin the Moore film and ultimately decided to ignore it as late as last week, according to a Republican strategist.
    Mr. Appell, whose company helped promote "The Passion of the Christ," estimated that the buzz created around that movie by protest groups added between 20% and 30% to the film's take. He urged conservatives to ignore Mr. Moore and says he's proud that most have.
    However, if the movie starts to resonate with a broad section of voters, conservatives may have no choice but to switch tactics.
    Indications that Republicans are attending the film are largely anecdotal. Steve Moore, president of the conservative Club for Growth in Washington, says he plans to see the movie and knows other Republicans will too. "It's like eating Ben & Jerry's ice cream," he says. "You want the ice cream but you don't like the political statements."
    Michael McHenry, a 31-year-old former banker and a registered independent who leans toward the Bush camp, saw the movie in New York with friends. He says the movie was entertaining but he was skeptical about the cherry-picking of events and said ultimately it won't change his vote.
    "I don't think it's going to change who wins the election," he says. But he acknowledges the film slightly influenced his view of President Bush for the worse. He particularly noted a scene when President Bush is told about the second plane hitting the Twin Towers while he is sitting in a classroom of children. The president continues to listen to a teacher reading a story about a goat for many minutes until he excuses himself.
    Reactions like Mr. McHenry's to the film concern some conservatives, who argue that not explaining the president's actions will allow doubts to percolate in the minds of voters.
    Alfred Regnery, the publisher of the conservative magazine American Spectator, worries that the movie's message could sway crucial independent voters. "For the most part he's preaching to the choir, but Michael Moore can be very persuasive," says Mr. Regnery. "I think a good many people who don't have an opinion will go and see it and think, 'wow, this is really terrible.'*"
    Howard Kaloogian, who runs Move America Forward, says Mr. Moore's film rode into the weekend on an uninterrupted public-relations blitz, but now conservatives aim to correct the record. That said, the group, which participated in a previously successful effort to persuade Viacom Inc.'s CBS to drop a television program on Ronald Reagan, weren't able to persuade theater owners to stop screening Mr. Moore's film.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  9. #49  
    I heard something interesting yesterday...related to this discussion.
    The prisoners in Guatanomo bay (who are held without trial btw) get 'interrogated' but they dont record these so the defense doesnt have any material... very strange for the land that promises freedom and democracy...
    There are also rumours about torture over there... not sure if those are true, but it sure smells...
    How can you claim to be a modern democratic country with justice and then deny your prisoners of all basic human rights?? it boggles my mind..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  10. #50  
    and the US Supreme Court agrees, they are no longer in legal limbo.
    Animo et Fide
  11. #51  
    Everyone here seems to be very civil considering this is a discussion (at least in part) on politics. My hat's off to everyone for that.

    It's a good thing there isn't an Aptitude test requirement for becoming president:

    http://www.lifeisajoke.com/politics23_html.htm

    I wish we had more choices as well.
  12. #52  
    Speaking of being civil, I saw Moore on the Tavis Smiley show and he was downright calm! He cracked a few jokes, but nothing crazy, and he certainly didn't go Oscar on Tavis.

    Considering I was watching two people I rarely I agree with on the issues at hand, it was very interesting an informative. Of course, I respect both of the gentlemen too, so I guess that had somethign to do with it.
  13. #53  
    Reading my local papers op-ed page I am amazed and disgusted at how many people are so willing to take this movie for absolute fact. It's amazing how few people can actually think for themselves. Of course if its on the big screen it must be true right? I need to move.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Reading my local papers op-ed page I am amazed and disgusted at how many people are so willing to take this movie for absolute fact. It's amazing how few people can actually think for themselves. Of course if its on the big screen it must be true right? I need to move.
    Wont help, people over there will either believe the same thing or believe all the bush gov has to say...

    Very little people challenge anything...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15. #55  
    some believe fox news and some moore!
  16.    #56  
    I read in today's WSJ that 60% of profits from the movie will go to charities. It's really a convoluted scheme that involves Disney, Miramax co-chairmen brothers and Mr. Moore. But charities are a good thing regardless.
    Last edited by m00se; 07/02/2004 at 01:48 PM.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Wont help, people over there will either believe the same thing or believe all the bush gov has to say...

    Very little people challenge anything...
    I dont think a person's size really matters...

    Seriously though, I think your wrong. There are far more people in the middle than on the far right or the far left. And how come we never see you bagging on YOUR government for supporting the Bush plan in Iraq. Last I heard the Aussies were part of the unilateral (sic) coalition.

    Personally I'll take Bush over Kerry even if it may just be the lesser of two evils. Kerry is cluless. I spent 30 min last nite watching him on Cspan giving a speech about his great plan. He was talking about how he will personally restructure higher education in our country and make sure that everyone has access to a college education and will reward colleges financially for graduating as many students as they can. Well what kind of college education is that? If you just have to go to get graduated, why not just get a fake dilpoma off the internet? There isn't any difference, if the school is going to graduate you for cash. It wont matter to them if you earned it, they'll just want the kickback. What a moronic idea. Why not just issue a high school and college degree at the same time as the birth certificate and then we'll have no shortage of guaranteed graduates. Not to mention it is just a ridiculous idea because it isnt even possible. Is he gonna pay for it? Nope, so that means more taxes. No thanks.

    I couldnt take any more. I had to shut it off. With that kind of stupid crap on his list what other assinine ideas does this bozo have up his sleeve? Hell, Bush can nuke Iraq, and I'll still vote for him before Kerry.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by m00se
    I read in today's WSJ that 60% of profits from the movie will go to charities. It's really a convoluted scheme that involves Disney, Miramax co-chairmen brothers and Mr. Moore. But charities are a good thing regardless.
    Charities, yep. The M. Moore housing charity. The M. Moore auto charity. The M. Moore propaganda machine. I could go on.

    Let's see the proof before we get too excited about anything. For that matter lets see some of the proof about Fat Boy's claims in the movie.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Charities, yep. The M. Moore housing charity. The M. Moore auto charity. The M. Moore propaganda machine. I could go on...
    I should have posted the whole article but I outdone myself last time. Anyhow, here's the deal: There was a snafu between Miramax and Disney. Disney refused to finance the movie so Miramax (or more precisely, co-chairmen brothers) financed it on their own. Nevertheless, since Disney owns Miramax and had a deal prior to the movie that Miramax will take 40% of the movie's profit (minus Mr. Moore's take), and Disney will have the rest (60%), Disney made the promise to give their share to charities (their share, you see, is by default for they did not put a cent into the movie). Disney will chose the charities (not Mr. Moore).
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Hell, Bush can nuke Iraq, and I'll still vote for him before Kerry.
    Hydrogen is not the most plentiful element in the universe....stupidity is - as just proven by fabulous Woof himself, congrats!
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