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  1. #161  
    My google search term was Al Gore WMD. I was laughing at your posts as I made the search.
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  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by JTREOB
    Keep in mind that most of those you speak of, anti abortionists, are one in the same when it comes to outlawing promissing stem cell research using embryos from a petri dish. Were's the protection of its citizens there?
    Point taken. I am still figuring out this issue for my self.
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  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    all horses have four legs, all dogs have four legs, therefore all horses are dogs - your logic is a little weak.
    Ha, alas philosophy doesn't mix with politics: Bush isn't a horse; not yet
    Since no one has ever seen WMDs in Iraq nor proved that they ever existed, how can you possibly argue, as Bush did, that the US needs to go to war because of it. WMD, however, does exist in North Korea (they N. Koreans admitted that). Therefore (borrowing from the 4-legged analogy, if I may), Bush should have invaded that country as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    ...All hysteria aside - where is the "lie" here? Bush only lied if he didn't believe WMD's existed. I haven't seen any credible evidence (actually, no evidence whatsoever) that Bush didn't believe in the accuracy of the WMD evidence.
    I suppose one can argue that President Bush was lied to. But since Bush, as of yet, did not say "I was lied to by..." I put the responsibility for this fiasco on his lap. The CIA, FBI, Pantaloon are under the president's supervision. If they failed to inform him what the truth might have been, and he goes to war based on a failed premise, I consider him responsible.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
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    #164  
    Iraq - gassing tens of thousands of Kurds - nuf said

    why is it a lie and not, maybe, bad data ?
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    nice Carville impression - looks like you hit the same site I did (Google - kerry quote wmd). The truth is out there............ wasn't that hard to find either, and the site I saw has all the sources for the quotes....
    Now here's a funny thing. Both you and heberman, by saying that the Clinton's administration, and other democrats, lied to us because they concluded that Iraq had WMD, are in-effect, saying that Bush lied as well. heberman went as far as saying: " LIARS, LIARS, THEY'RE ALL LIARS, STUPID, AND LUNATICS!!. Now, where were those talking points the DNC faxed to me...." So to conclude this long threaded debate: Both the Bush administration and the Clinton administration lied to us. Bush, however, decided to go to war for it.
    Side point: In 1980, Israel sent its warplanes to Iraq and raided the (according to Israel) Iraqis nuclear facility (the Osirak reactor). Israel said back then that Iraq was nearing its nuke's ability (building the bomb). The UN Security Council unanimously and in the strongest terms condemned Israel. Even Jeane Kirkpatrick, then U.S. ambassador to the UN, described the attack as "shocking" and compared it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. "Reagan officials worried publicly that the raid could destabilize Saddam Hussein and bring in 'someone worse.'" (Quote by Rael Jean Isaac).
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  6. #166  
    You guys are going around-and-around, repeating points and again. And although I enjoy reading most of the posts here, I am utterly disgusted with what the Iraq war has turned into. So, for me, why we started this war isn't as important as how to end it. And the sooner the better.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  7.    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    "...I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." the "his" refers to Sadam, obviously. [John Kerry in Oct of 2002]
    If you read this carefully, you will realize it is actually true.
  8.    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    A few more, those dang liars and lunatics:

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18,1998.

    "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
    Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

    "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.]

    LIARS, LIARS, THEY'RE ALL LIARS, STUPID, AND LUNATICS!!. Now, where were those talking points the DNC faxed to me....
    Again, these statements are actually true. Indeed Saddam had had WMD and indeed he was not cooperating with the Weapons Inspectors at the time and showing them whether he had really destroyed everything. Only that this situation was totally different when Bush attacked Iraq: there were intense and complete inspections going on, all of which turned up nothing.

    So we still have the same question: either Bush and his team lied, or they are totally incompetent when in comes to judging reality and the basis for their decision to go to war. Maybe you are right, maybe Bush did believe in the WMD crap himself. Only that this would not make it any better, because then we know he bases his decisions on crap - not just some decision, but a decision that cost the lives of about 5'000 to 10'000 innocent Iraqi civilians (plus about twice as many Iraqi soldiers, plus about 880 coalition deaths, etc.), numbers rising.
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    by saying that the Clinton's administration, and other democrats, lied to us because they concluded that Iraq had WMD, are in-effect, saying that Bush lied as well.
    This is where, I think, you're misiing my point. I don't think Clinton lied wrt WMD. I am confident all those folks believed what they saw as valid intelligence data.

    Were there WMDs ? yes, we all know they were used in the past.

    Did they exist at the time we invaded ? We haven't found them yet, which means that they may not have even been there.

    Is is possible they were dispersed to Syria, buried, etc ? Maybe, they did bury Migs, though.

    I just don't see why Sadam would put on such a charade if they were never there - why wouldn't you go to the brink, then open your doors and embarass the US by "proving" you're clean, then become the hero of all those who dislike us....

    or

    squirrel away piles of cash cleaned out from the banks to sustain you in a cushy life in exile in a friendly country, as you disperse the majority of the only thing (WMDs) that could get you extradited (sp) from your exile host, all the while being protected by the terrorists you've funded or supplied WMDs to........

    Final thought - I hear so many people say that Iraq doesn't want or isn't ready for democracy. of all the rhetoric, I actually find this offensive. I am not a history scholar, but as I understand it, most folks were NOT in favor of the revolution. Also, who am I to decide who gets to be free and who has to live under the thumb of a dictator.

    this is really why we're there......
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    Iraq - gassing tens of thousands of Kurds - nuf said......
    pabo, Sadam Hussein was a terrible-horrible-horrifying man. I personally want to see him pay the price for all the atrocities he has committed!
    Having said that, perhaps our disagreement here is based on definition. To me, weapons of mass destruction are weapons that can annihilate a country with a single blow. A weapon that can cause chaos and ruin in huge proportions. The atomic bomb -- nuclear, hydrogen, or what-have-you -- is such a weapon. Chemical capability on Sadam’s behalf is not a reason to go to war for one could argue that the United State’s existence wasn’t in jeopardy. However, assuming that Chemical weapons are considered WMD, I’d agree with you that Iraq has had those weapons sometimes prior to the war, but not during the war.
    Now, please-please, with all candid, answer this: Kim Jong Il's, North Korean’s leader, is also a terrible-horrible-horrifying man. His atrocities towards his own people are well documented. He does have a nuclear bomb at his bedside. Why in world president Bush does not go after him? If the main reason for invading Iraq was WMD, indeed North Korea should have been invaded as well.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
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    #171  
    the obvious answer - he has WMDs (by your definition) and unfortunately the ability to launch them from his own soil.

    If you have an overwhelming advantage - go straight up the middle, ie invade Iraq. If you do not, you have to use a lot more strategy, peer pressure, etc, like in N Korea. I think that is what we are in the process of doing - which is why we need a pretty focused plan for dealing with these issues.

    Rumor was that the train explosion was meant for KJI, but missed him by a couple hours.
  12. #172  
    Some more positive economic news came out again today...its getting to become pretty standard.
  13. #173  
    N. Korea misses a key point.

    There is a country in the Middle East itself which is loaded with WMD, which has broken more UN Resolutions than any other country on earth (including Iraq), which is led by a man suspected of war crimes, which is occupying all of one country and parts of two others, which was formed by ethnically cleansing the existing population, which is known for numerous human rights abuses including torture, which has racist laws..... etc etc

    It is of course Israel, recipient of more US aid than any other country.

    Should the US really be surprised that its motives are viewed with the deepest suspicion around the world?
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by jpahl
    N. Korea misses a key point.
    There is a country in the Middle East itself which is loaded with WMD, which has broken more UN Resolutions than any other country on earth (including Iraq), which is led by a man suspected of war crimes, which is occupying all of one country and parts of two others, which was formed by ethnically cleansing the existing population, which is known for numerous human rights abuses including torture, which has racist laws..... etc etc

    It is of course Israel, recipient of more US aid than any other country.

    Should the US really be surprised that its motives are viewed with the deepest suspicion around the world?
    What a lesson in incorrect history you are giving here, golly. But, per ususal, Isarel is the scapegoat for many problems the Arab world is facing: When in doubt, blame Israel, why not?
    First, please provide proof that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than any other country on earth.
    Second, what country and parts of two other countries Israel is occupying? (After you answered this, I’ll give you my account on this.)
    Third, what “ethnically cleansing” are you talking about? And please provide a definition of “ethnically cleansing.”
    Fourth, are you suggesting that the United Sates’ motives are Israel’s fault?
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    #175  
    oh, boy. don't even go there. your comment if fully if inaccuracies.

    the next argument I'd like you to address is the religious, moral and ethical justification for breeding hatred into your youth and strapping bombs on adolescents and pregnant women for the purpose of killing commuters.......

    on second thought, there is none, so no reply is necessary.
  16. #176  
    pabo, I assume (and hope) that your post is about what jpahl wrote. Am I correct?
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    oh, boy. don't even go there. your comment if fully if inaccuracies.

    the next argument I'd like you to address is the religious, moral and ethical justification for breeding hatred into your youth and strapping bombs on adolescents and pregnant women for the purpose of killing commuters.......

    on second thought, there is none, so no reply is necessary.
    Hey pabo, we agree on one thing! (Assuming you said that to jpahl.)
    I agree with m00se that jpahl's post is littered with inaccurate statements and seems more hateful than constructive.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  18.    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    oh, boy. don't even go there. your comment if fully if inaccuracies.

    the next argument I'd like you to address is the religious, moral and ethical justification for breeding hatred into your youth and strapping bombs on adolescents and pregnant women for the purpose of killing commuters.......

    on second thought, there is none, so no reply is necessary.
    You are right, there is no justification.

    OTOH, when you put a group of people into a hopeless situation, treat all of them as second class human beings (even though only a small part of them have done wrong), slowly but steadily take away their land (even though it is theirs according to all legal standards apart from the ones who take away the land), then you should not be surprised when some people start doing cruel, stupid, unjustifiable and desperate things.

    What would YOU do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp in Gaza or the West Bank? Would you just give up and say yes to everything? After all, you could not not even go away, because you would not have any money, and who would take you?
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    #179  
    first - I was referring to jpahl in my post.

    schmoozer - mayber we're not too different after all......


    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...then you should not be surprised when some people start doing cruel, stupid, unjustifiable and desperate things.

    What would YOU do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp in Gaza or the West Bank? Would you just give up and say yes to everything? After all, you could not not even go away, because you would not have any money, and who would take you?

    I might strap a bomb to my 40 year old body and run at an army unit, but I would NEVER, no matter how desparate, detonate onboard a bus, and NEVER EVEN CONSIDER convincing my 14 year old to do it.

    In most cases like that, people allow their leaders to whip them into a frenzy of inhumane response. In some cases (one of my mentor's as a case in point) a leader will allow himself to take the lead, ie do as I say, to the point of themselves suffering the ultimate loss. A few folks in history have done this and created a response that has lasted throughout time.

    The Palestinians are being used by their leaders - why are Arafat's kids living in Europe when his people's children are being sacrificed. HIS children made it out to a better life, why are the majority of others being used as pawns ?
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    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ... there is no justification.

    OTOH, when you ...

    and I forgot, as someone I once worked for said, everything before the "but" is BS. You say there is no justification and then you provide one.

    There is no justification. period.
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