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  1. pabo's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikegold
    It's so funny how you bobble heads just spit back all you've heard from Rush and Sean Hannity and all the while insist that others are delusional.

    Must be too much of that "Hillbilly Heroin!"
    Funny, while I do on occasion hear both of those shows (I actually have a job that I need to keep to pay my taxes so I'm usually busy), I've NEVER heard either of them make that reference. When were you listening that you heard it ?

    BTW, I've never implied you were delusional, just mis-guided - also, what is hilbilly heroin ?
  2. pabo's Avatar
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    Perhaps boredom is rooted in your aloof thinking, man. Everything you believe in must not be boring. Democrats, therefore, bore you. Nuff said.
    Why do you have to always take the debate down the path of personal insults - unless of course, you have few facts on which to base your argument. I am bored by dems (and repubs for that matter) who do nothing but spew the party line. Think for yourself and come up with a creative argument for once (see also the Kool Aid analogy)


    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    Indeed everyone thought WMDs were in Iraq because prez Bush and staff took pain in convincing us they were. And we all fell for it. (Blix is not my president, BTW.).
    Huh ?? - see above. Have you forgotten the 12 year UN search, the UN reports on the weapons stores (oh, yeah, the UN ginned them up to help GWB), the quotes from Kerry and Clinton, the cruise missiles, etc, etc, etc. Had the only argument been that the current admin thought they were there, and no one else, we wouldn't be having this debate. EVERYONE PRIOR TO BUSH SAID THERE WERE WMDS IN IRAQ. Any argument you present to the contrary is simply wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    The US Supreme Court has elected Bush to office.
    This is such a juvenile sound bite arguement is is not even worth addressing

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    It is about keeping the public in the dark.
    Hang on there Mr. Civil Liberty, I will agree to "enlighten" the public on all investigations when you clearly and explicitly identify the criteria where we expose the accused before we've actually determined if and what crime was committed. Case in point - the woman holding the leash - she says she was told to do this by her superiors. If she did it on her own, fry her, if she was ordered to do it, the folks who have so widely published those photos have now destroyed her life. What if she is innocent, what if she was ordered to do it by GWB, what if whatever - let's get the facts before we start lynching folks - you should know better than that.
  3. #143  
    This thread is great! Bump...
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    Why do you have to always take the debate down the path of personal insults...I am bored by dems (and repubs for that matter) who do nothing but spew the party line. Think for yourself and come up with a creative argument for once (see also the Kool Aid analogy).
    When someone is bored with what I have to say I take it personally. You started your first response by saying "Blah, blah, blah..."
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    Huh ?? - see above. Have you forgotten the 12 year UN search, the UN reports on the weapons stores (oh, yeah, the UN ginned them up to help GWB), the quotes from Kerry and Clinton, the cruise missiles, etc, etc, etc. Had the only argument been that the current admin thought they were there, and no one else, we wouldn't be having this debate. EVERYONE PRIOR TO BUSH SAID THERE WERE WMDS IN IRAQ. Any argument you present to the contrary is simply wrong.
    What argument? Again: Bush is the president. He told us that the reason he is going into Iraq was because of the WMDs. He is responsible for dragging the US into a war based on a false premise. Others did not go to war Bush did! Inspections by the UN, quotes by president Clinton and/or senator Kerry did not get us into a war.
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    This is such a juvenile sound bite arguement is is not even worth addressing.
    And I am taking the debate down the path of personal insults?
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    Hang on there Mr. Civil Liberty.
    And I am taking the debate down the path of personal insults?
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    I will agree to "enlighten" the public on all investigations when you clearly and explicitly identify the criteria where we expose the accused before we've actually determined if and what crime was committed
    Listen. I am asking that our government be honest. Of course there's due process and everyone who's involved in this scandal is presumed to be innocent. (By the way, I served in the military and I do know that soldiers have the right to say "no" if they strongly disagree with orders).
    Last edited by Schmoozer; 05/12/2004 at 02:06 PM.
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  5. pabo's Avatar
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    #145  
    I'll apologize for the Mr. Civil Liberty thing, but not for classifying your argument. I beleive it is of that nature of that argument because it assumes that while the guys - Bush, Cheney and the right justices - were sluggin' back a couple beers, they hatched this plan to steal the elections. C'mon. What could possibly compel any life long servant of the judicial system to succumb to the pressure of a couple politicos. These folks have a life-long appointment, and a pretty cushy life once they retire - were they trying to assure a seat on some Board of Directors - do you believe that.

    Now, maybe there basis for a decision was wrong, I can't speak to that, not being a Constitutional scholar, but to imply they let there politics override their sense of responsibility is a weak argument. If that were true, I'd be packng my bags for the citizenship in the Bahamas right now. This is the precise reason we give life-time appointments, so that they are not pressured by politics.

    PS - thanks for your service, it is what allows you and I to strongly disagree in a public forum, and not fear that either of us will be carted off to a re-education center somewhere.... Hey, look at that - common ground........
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    #146  
    sorry for the sloppy spelling/english
  7.    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    EVERYONE PRIOR TO BUSH SAID THERE WERE WMDS IN IRAQ. Any argument you present to the contrary is simply wrong.
    You have to be careful with the tense: It it obvious that there HAVE BEEN WMD in Iraq at a given point (after all he had used some of them).

    However, while the UN and most of the Europeans said "we are not sure yet Saddam has destroyed everything he got (as ordered), let's continue looking", the Bush administration said "We know beyond doubt he still has WMD" - there was a whole series of quotes on Treocentral that was unfortunately wiped out due to the famous Treocentral crash.

    We all know by now the Bush administration was lying. If my government would lie to me, I would be angry. Many US citizens do not seem to care.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    YWe all know by now the Bush administration was lying.
    I don't know who "we all" is, but they are wrong. There is no evidence anywhere that Bush lied to anyone. Clulup - name one "lie" by Bush.
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  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I don't know who "we all" is, but they are wrong. There is no evidence anywhere that Bush lied to anyone. Clulup - name one "lie" by Bush.
    I am not clulup, but I can't help commenting. Consider this scenario, if you will: Our president is telling us that the reason he is going to a war is because the Iraqis (Sadam) have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Since the war started no WMD were found. One would conclude that the president told us a lie. He wanted Sadam, dead or alive, badly enough to start a war.
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    #150  
    all horses have four legs, all dogs have four legs, therefore all horses are dogs - your logic is a little weak.

    Just to throw some gas on the fire, did you see that THKerry made over $5MM last year and paid taxes at ..................

    drum roll..................

    a rate of 11.5 % !!!!

    no wonder he wants my tax refund back, we've got to cover her share....
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    I am not clulup, but I can't help commenting. Consider this scenario, if you will: Our president is telling us that the reason he is going to a war is because the Iraqis (Sadam) have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Since the war started no WMD were found. One would conclude that the president told us a lie. He wanted Sadam, dead or alive, badly enough to start a war.
    Under this theory, I will assume that there is, and have never been, any WMD's in IRAQ. Even if that were true, that doesn't show Bush lied. There is no dispute that Bush received substantial evidence from numerous independent sources that the WMD's existed. Bush relied upon such evidence in telling us that (one of the) reason(s) for going to war was to get rid of WMD's.

    All hysteria aside - where is the "lie" here? Bush only lied if he didn't believe WMD's existed. I haven't seen any credible evidence (actually, no evidence whatsoever) that Bush didn't believe in the accuracy of the WMD evidence.
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  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    ...Now, maybe there basis for a decision was wrong, I can't speak to that, not being a Constitutional scholar, but to imply they let there politics override their sense of responsibility is a weak argument. If that were true, I'd be packng my bags for the citizenship in the Bahamas right now. This is the precise reason we give life-time appointments, so that they are not pressured by politics.........
    Fair enough. However, since the president picks justices to the US Supreme Court, I have to be nave enough to believe that their political thinking is inline with the president (liberal justices with Democrat-presidents; conservative justices with Republican-presidents). I do believe that justices, often enough, let their political feelings (or social feelings) penetrate their final decisions. Its a human thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by pabo
    ...PS - thanks for your service, it is what allows you and I to strongly disagree in a public forum, and not fear that either of us will be carted off to a re-education center somewhere.... Hey, look at that - common ground........
    Thanks. I appreciate that! I enjoy this debate
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  13.    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I don't know who "we all" is, but they are wrong. There is no evidence anywhere that Bush lied to anyone. Clulup - name one "lie" by Bush.
    You can always argue that Bush's stupidity and ignorance is unlimited - who is the worse leader, one who is incapable of telling fact from fiction, or a person who lies deliberately? However here are some examples:

    We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003

    Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
    - George W. Bush, address to the U.S., March 17, 2003

    We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat.
    - Donald Rumsfeld, ABC interview, March 30, 2003

    But make no mistake - as I said earlier - we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.
    - White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, April 10, 2003

    I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now.
    - Colin Powell, remarks to reporters, May 4, 2003

    Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction.
    - Gen. Richard Myers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, NBC Today Show interview, May 26, 2003

    You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them . - George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 31, 2003
    [The labs were later judged to not contain any such weapons, that they most likely were used for weather balloons]


    So either Bush and his team are lunatics or liers - which do you prefer?

    BTW Bush also lied about many other things, e.g. by quoting economic reports that do not exist, or by concealing the true cost of his Medicare program. Again, you can argue that he is just incompetent, but that does not make things better, does it?
  14. #154  
    Nice try Clulup, but you failed to point out a single "lie", since there is no evidence that Bush deceived anybody. Typical of Bush haters, without any support, you throw around more names, like lunatics, stupidity, and ignorance. Try quoting all of the democrats and other world leaders who were making the same statements. Are they also liars, lunatics, stupid, and ignorant?

    The way people (not just you) twist facts around, conveniently ignore the same statements said by others, and use false logic in feeble attempts support their vendettas against President Bush amazes me. It's too bad when politics overcomes reason and thought.
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    #155  
    you forgot the best quote/lie from GWB...

    "...I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." the "his" refers to Sadam, obviously.
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    #156  
    opps, my mistake, that was a quote from John Kerry in Oct of 2002.

    I meant to use this one

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
  17. #157  
    Clulup, after rereading my last post, I realize it could be taken somewhat personally offensive - I apologize. I could have worded my thoughts more politely.
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    #158  
    man, I must be losing it. that last one was actually from Al Gore in September of 2002....sorry....
  19. #159  
    A few more, those dang liars and lunatics:

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18,1998.

    "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
    Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

    "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

    "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

    "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
    Letter to President Bush, Signed by Joe Lieberman (D-CT), John McCain (Rino-AZ) and others, Dec. 5, 2001

    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
    Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

    "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
    Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I b elieve that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002.

    "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
    Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
    Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002.

    "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002.

    "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his contin ued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
    LIARS, LIARS, THEY'RE ALL LIARS, STUPID, AND LUNATICS!!. Now, where were those talking points the DNC faxed to me....
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    #160  
    nice Carville impression - looks like you hit the same site I did (Google - kerry quote wmd). The truth is out there............ wasn't that hard to find either, and the site I saw has all the sources for the quotes....
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