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  1.    #1  
    Just wondering...
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  2. #2  
    ...because we are either:

    1) Doing a very good thing and helping the Iraqi people, or

    2) Trying to clean up the huge mess that we created.

    Pick one.
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

    Wife = Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 755p > Palm Centro > Palm Pixi
  3. #3  
    Not to mention that we have so many people there at this point, we can't just tell 'em all to pack up and come home tomorrow.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alli
    Not to mention that we have so many people there at this point, we can't just tell 'em all to pack up and come home tomorrow.
    Why not?
    What was the objective of this war? According to the White House, as was told to us: To get-rid of weapons of mess destruction. No such weapons were found and Sadam Hussein was captured. From history we should learn that creating a pro-west-puppet-leader in Iraq, a country that did not experience modern-style democracy in more than 2000 years, is silly at best (i.e. the Shah of Iran). Let the Iraqi people determine their future.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  5. #5  
    I agree we can't jsut duck and run. Whether you were for or against the war in the beginning, now that we're there, it's imperative that the US succeed in making sure Iraq doesn't spiral into an unholy mess of armagadden! That woudl really be bad for us and the whole world and very good or UBL etc...

    However, after the whole WMD fiasco etc, I no longer feel the main objective of the US is create some type of Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq. Quite frankly screw that. What the US and what the Iraqi's need is security first and foremost...democracy be damned. Furthermore, I think the whole notion (by some neoconservatives) that they were somehow going to go to Iraq and "democratize the Arabs" is obsurd. Some may think this assestment is racist or condesending, but it's the truth. You cannot democratize a society from the outside that does not have the culture or institutions to support it. THere is a reason why there are no (besides Turkey) true democracies in the Moslem world. Instead the US needs another pro-US Hamid Karzai-like leader over there to make sure the country doesn't split apart after June 30th and doesn't fall into the hands of the Shiite fanatics. At this point, it all about security and getting the hell out. If democarcy comes later on, then fine...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

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  6. #6  
    Elect the Democrats and we will be out there by January!
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    Elect the Democrats and we will be out there by January!

    Yeah if you wanna cut and run...But we gotta stablize it as much as possible and and THEN leave. Unfortunately, "handing it off to the UN" as Dems keep harping is no solution. There's no one who can fix this for us...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

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  8. #8  
    Hey, that's the only solution that the Dems want and they will get it in November. Get out and leave the other parts of world to it's own. Pretend 9/11 was somebody else's fault.

    If there is anybody to blame, we are all to blame for being complacent. All the politicians (past and present) should be held liable regardless of party affiliation.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Unfortunately, "handing it off to the UN" as Dems keep harping is no solution. There's no one who can fix this for us...
    "Handing it off to the UN" does not mean the US have nothing to do with it any more, the US are part of the UN as well, at least they used to behave like that until 3.5 years ago. And "there's no one who can fix this for [the US]" seems misleading to me. Fact is that the US have proven highly incompetent in building up an Iraqi authority in Iraq. Only after Lakhdar Brahimi, an experienced UN diplomat, took over control of building up a new Iraqi interim government, things started to make some sense. This reflects the general problem the US have in Iraq. (A) They have no credibility and (B) the have no idea. Take Paul Bremer as an example: the only contact he had with the Arab world was a few months stay in Afganistan in 1967, he does not speak arabic, he does not understand the foreign culture - apparently a common problem, certainly now that the US are ruled by a narrow-minded former alcoholic turned fundamental christian, who knows little or nothing about the world outside of Texas, but about the importance of oil and money, and how the two are linked.

    If the Bush administration would have acted a bit less arrogantly, they would have real international support, the UN would have been in charge of creating a new government from the start instead of losing a whole year with futile efforts and a useless "Governing Council". But Bush could not wait with saving the world from Saddam's WMD, or whatever the reason he gave was.
  10. #10  
    We are still there because G.W. Bush has obligations to American Oil companies that were promised oil fields in pre-911 meetings. The map in this link showing locations of Iraq's oil fields was used in these meetings.
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/IraqOilMap.pdf

    Still ZERO WMDs in Iraqi. But Bush already knew that. The only Terror going on in Iraq is the result of this US Invasion and slaughter. All of the WMDs in the Middle East are in Israel.

    We lost a lot of troops this past month. But the good news is: Oil Production was up! Mission Accomplished!

    Hopefully President Kerry will get the world involved in restoring order to Iraqi and establishing a Government of the Iraqi people. I also hope that a government of the people can once again be established in the US with the dethrowning of King George W. Bush. May the American people wake up come November and not allow a repeat of the 2000 coup d'ť∑tat that took place putting George W. Bush in power after he lost the election to Gore.
  11.    #11  
    Being as liberal and open minded as I am, I have to agree with most of what the previous two posters have written. Going to war, it appears, is easier than getting out of it. And fighting terrorism is different than invading a country. Itís an awkward world we live in.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  12.    #12  
    And the saga continues: Human rights abuse is the latest.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    And the saga continues: Human rights abuse is the latest.
    The irony is remarkable: the pictures that were made in order to humiliate the Iraqis even more now humiliate the US... they now prove for most moslems in the Middle East what they suspected before: that the US (and sadly, by analogy, also the rest of the western world, even if they were not part of it) are a bunch of sexual perverts...

    It takes an enormous amount of stupidity to think that the photos would not make their way into the public, but apparently the people in the US army responsible for the prisoners and/or the interrogations somehow managed to believe just that... they are not only very arrogant and cruel, but also extremely stupid.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The irony is remarkable: the pictures that were made in order to humiliate the Iraqis even more now humiliate the US... they now prove for most moslems in the Middle East what they suspected before: that the US (and sadly, by analogy, also the rest of the western world, even if they were not part of it) are a bunch of sexual perverts...

    It takes an enormous amount of stupidity to think that the photos would not make their way into the public, but apparently the people in the US army responsible for the prisoners and/or the interrogations somehow managed to believe just that... they are not only very arrogant and cruel, but also extremely stupid.
    Saddam, Quasay, and Uday define the term sexaul perverts so while I disagree with the soldiers action, please don't make sound like the pure Muslim community has been violated. The Muslim religion is just as hypocritical as any other -- say one thing but do another.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    Saddam, Quasay, and Uday define the term sexaul perverts so while I disagree with the soldiers action, please don't make sound like the pure Muslim community has been violated. The Muslim religion is just as hypocritical as any other -- say one thing but do another.
    What makes you think I said anything about the Muslim religion being less (or more) hypocritical that e.g. Christianity?
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    Saddam, Quasay, and Uday define the term sexaul perverts.
    Sure they were! And much worst then that.
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    ...so while I disagree with the soldiers action....
    This is not about a few soldiers. Unfortunately, according to the NY Magazine, now it appears the attitude towards those prisoners was coming from top brass: This is about policy not about few soldiers being stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    ...please don't make sound like the pure Muslim community has been violated. The Muslim religion is just as hypocritical as any other -- say one thing but do another.
    True. The Moslem community, and many Iraqis, have to answer some tough questions as well. Brutality towards captured American soldiers and civilians was unspeakable!
    Still, my question remains: Why are we still in Iraq? There's no apparent good reason for being there.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    [...] Still, my question remains: Why are we still in Iraq? There's no apparent good reason for being there.
    There are lots of places where 'we''re still present where there're few good reasons for 'us' still being there.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    There are lots of places where 'we''re still present where there're few good reasons for 'us' still being there.
    There are US troops in approx. 155 countries (give or take a few)...
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

    Wife = Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 755p > Palm Centro > Palm Pixi
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    Being as liberal and open minded as I am...
    he he, now that's an oximoron.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    he he, now that's an oximoron.
    Oh, the irony.
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