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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    I honestly think you are missing my point. It is very patriotic to criticize your country if it’s done fairly and with integrity. This is the beauty of living in a functioning democracy, with freedom of speech and apple pie (although I like sunflower seeds better). Why do you think that critical thinking equates to a “horrible place”?! I think it is the opposite: Many people who criticize the US do it with an enormous love and pride for this country and for what it STANDS! We should have standards. We should lead the way. We should be the role models for the rest of the world to see.
    I am liberal and I DO criticize other countries. I have said in the strongest terms that those hoodlums who beheaded on video another human being are sick and disgusting! And they need to be punished.

    Excellent job in this thread, Chick !!

    Also, regarding someone's previous reply:
    "It strikes me as funny (sick funny) that the lefties arent cryng about the murder of Mr Nick Berg the way they are about the humiliation of pow's. Is it because Nick wasn't a POW? Or is it because they just want to b!tch about America. "

    Gee, maybe it's because if liberals said that the beheading was in retaliation for the abuse, the conservatives (who are saying the same thing as justification FOR the abuse) would accuse them of piling on with the terrorists. It's no win either way - which the whole Iraq adventure was from the get go.

    FYI, I'm middle of road independent, and lived in Middle East for 3 years. Do you know that the Bush administration NEVER asked any of our past diplomats with experience in the region for their advice on it? They were in fact told their advice was not wanted. The group-think, head-in-the-sand approach to management of the so-called "War on Terror" (I say so-called because Iraq never had anything to do with terrorism after Clinton bombed their Intelligence service back in 93) by this administration has been one of deep incompetence. If a company were run as badly as the President-CEO and his other CEO pals, the company would go bankrupt...
    Oh yeah, we're doing that too!
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by m00se
    Grammar is my thing. Thanks.
    I'll refrain from the easy shot.
    My suggestion, quite to the contrary, was this: Because you got angry at people who think differently than you, you decided to throw into your post a far-fetched theory to make your point.
    Huh? I'm not sure what you're on about here. That part of clulup's post was in response to something someone else said, and instead of just totally deleting that part, I made an aside about something totally unrelated. I wasn't angry in the least. It was a total tangent sparked by my memory of clulup's recent mock conspiracy theory thread (that the recent board crash was engineered by pa1m0ne to delete one of his threads, IIRC).
    And my point is: There’s no need to go that far.
    Glad that I didn't then. Or rather perhaps I went further, but in a direction you didn't realise.
    Just continue to disagree with me (us) without theories that obviously we, liberals, wouldn’t suggest.
    It had nothing to do with 'liberals' or 'conservatives'. I've been tagged as either depending on the context, in some cases accurately and in others couldn't be further from the truth. The fact remains, though, that there are conspiracy theories that Bush (and sometimes with the Israelis, Saudis, Warren Buffet, or even Bin Laden as willing accomplices) planned and executed 9/11. When I heard on the radio the other day someone saying that they didn't think all of the five in the video looked Arabic but rather some were 'white', it just struck me funny that I hadn't heard any conspiracy theories about it. It wasn't implied that I thought clulup believed such a thing in a serious way.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    I'll refrain from the easy shot.
    At least you humor me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    ...Glad that I didn't then. Or rather perhaps I went further, but in a direction you didn't realise.
    Fair enough. My bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    ...It wasn't implied that I thought clulup believed such a thing in a serious way.
    Peace!
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  4. #64  
    Allow me to add my two cents (coming from a humble Caribbean woman who travels quite often to the US and is in Love with the Country and everything it stands for).
    I do too agree that the US should serve as an example to all the countries out there.
    It brought chills reading some of the comments here as they were my comments to many of people here (locally). I too agree that Bush was simply trying to digress everyone's attention from the 9/11 mishap by invading Iraq.

    Yes, Sadam's been caught yet the culprit of 9/11 hasn't.
    Bush claimmed WMD yet found none and still was allowed to invade Iraq (I said allow b/c we all now that there are people who 'advice' the presidents on what he should or should not do). This all, IMHO, was all to mark his time in precidency and/or to take America's attention from 9/11.

    Now, about the POW, I personally don't know what's the big deal (please allow me to speak in my Caribbean slangs or it might just not come out right ) they are POW after all. They were caught with a machine gun in their hands ready to kill whichever American (and even their own people) they find in their way. So if this people were caught and put in a cell I hardly expect them to get treated as though they are in a hotel on vacation.
    So what if they have a plastic bag over their head for 72hrs...they made a choice and have to abide to the concequences. It was either "them or me" (matter-of-speech).
    Do you think that Iraq's treat American POW nicely...I don't think so.

    Frankly, I do not have much sympathy towards anyone who's willing to strap themselves with a bomb, kill themselves and hundreds of other people.

    Now, the fact that the Iraqis picked up and innocent man (wasn't even a soldier) and did what they did (I still have the images and sound of that guy in my head) is inexcusable and actions of nothing less than savages/animals.
    They should get caught and be punished to the full extend of the law (which in my opinion is just simply not enough in comparison).
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by JoJo_78
    Now, about the POW, I personally don't know what's the big deal (please allow me to speak in my Caribbean slangs or it might just not come out right ) they are POW after all. They were caught with a machine gun in their hands ready to kill whichever American (and even their own people) they find in their way. So if this people were caught and put in a cell I hardly expect them to get treated as though they are in a hotel on vacation.
    So what if they have a plastic bag over their head for 72hrs...they made a choice and have to abide to the concequences. It was either "them or me" (matter-of-speech).Frankly, I do not have much sympathy towards anyone who's willing to strap themselves with a bomb, kill themselves and hundreds of other people.
    What do you mean by "they are POW after all"? POW are some sort of subhuman beings or what? Keep in mind that it is not illeagal to defend your country against an occupying power, regardless of what you think about the the pros and cons of the two sides.

    Also keep in mind that some of the people tortured had nothing to do with terrorism, Saddam or other insurgents. How would you feel if you were not only wrongfully imprisoned, but also e.g. sodomized there? The things the US soldiers did are illeagal both according to US law as well as the Geneva Convention.

    I think your notion that torturing prisoners is no big deal is rather primitive and cruel, regardless of what the prisoners have done. By supporting torture (or at least not seeing it as a big deal), you put yourself on a similarly low level like people who do cruel and illeagal things, e.g. terrorists.

    Frankly, I do not have much sympathy towards anyone who's willing to strap themselves with a bomb, kill themselves and hundreds of other people.
    Personally, I have no sympathy at all for people who do that. But you accept torture as no big deal, so why not other forms of violence? How about occasionally beating a prisoner to death, serves him right, no? Raping female or male POW, why not? Where do you draw the line?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What do you mean by "they are POW after all"? POW are some sort of subhuman beings or what? Keep in mind that it is not illeagal to defend your country against an occupying power, regardless of what you think about the the pros and cons of the two sides.

    Also keep in mind that some of the people tortured had nothing to do with terrorism, Saddam or other insurgents. How would you feel if you were not only wrongfully imprisoned, but also e.g. sodomized there? The things the US soldiers did are illeagal both according to US law as well as the Geneva Convention.

    I think your notion that torturing prisoners is no big deal is rather primitive and cruel, regardless of what the prisoners have done. By supporting torture (or at least not seeing it as a big deal), you put yourself on a similarly low level like people who do cruel and illeagal things, e.g. terrorists.

    Personally, I have no sympathy at all for people who do that. But you accept torture as no big deal, so why not other forms of violence? How about occasionally beating a prisoner to death, serves him right, no? Raping female or male POW, why not? Where do you draw the line?
    And you think that it doesn't happen...do you think that the US POW's are on vacation right now?
    Do you really think that POW's get treated rightly anywhere else besides the US? News flash dear, they don't.

    Yes, I do not agree on torturing or mistreating people who were caught in their home hiding from all the destruction and mishaps (innocent), however those caught out there adding to the situation with machine gun at hand or what have you (Guilty), hell yes. These people have a choice. As patriotic as you want to be if you don't agree with what the country is fighting for then you have the choice of not fighting (in their case they gladly fight simply b/c it's the US). If you fight it's simply b/c you share their views.

    You're entitled to your own opinion and so am I. If you think I'm primitive and cruel b/c of my opinion then so be it. However I do appreaciate you not associating me with them people.
    If you read carefully you would have seen that I do not agree with innocent people being involved, thus the reason I do not agree with what happened to Mr Berg. Have you seen the video? Maybe you should...
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by JoJo_78
    And you think that it doesn't happen...do you think that the US POW's are on vacation right now?
    In case with "US POW" you mean Iraqis in US custody: no, I do not think they are on vacation. In case you mean US soldiers as POW: I am not aware of any US POW at this point in time, on vacation or not. Please tell me more.
    Yes, I do not agree on torturing or mistreating people who were caught in their home hiding from all the destruction and mishaps (innocent), however those caught out there adding to the situation with machine gun at hand or what have you (Guilty), hell yes.
    Quite scary. I guess you would make a fine torturer. Have you already tortured yourself?
    You're entitled to your own opinion and so am I. If you think I'm primitive and cruel b/c of my opinion then so be it. However I do appreaciate you not associating me with them people.
    The notion that violence is an acceptable means for treating people who do not obey to the law or do not share your view (e.g. concerning religion) was abandoned some hundred years ago by civilised Western societies, likewise physical punishements like whipping, cutting off of hands, etc. That is why I call your view primitive. "Cruel" means "disposed to inflict pain or suffering, causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain". I guess that applies, so I tend to think my view is more than just opinion.

    What sets you apart from terrorists? Probably the fact that you do not actively use force against people who do not share your views. I guess you only support violence, e.g. in the form of torture, but you do not act yourself. I guess you would say that you only support violence against "guilty" people. But terrorists would say the same. Who is on the "guilty" side and who is "innocent" depends on which side you are on. If you are an Iraqi insurgent, the US soldiers are guilty. If you are a US soldier, then the Iraqi insurgents are guilty (Just in case: I do not share the view of Iraqi insurgents and I think they do not represent a majority or act in the interest of the Iraqi people). However, you share with a terrorist the most important part: both of you are willing to use violence as an acceptable means to reach your goals and to treat your enemies with.

    SOMETIMES it is acceptable to use violence, e.g when a policeman kills a wrongdoer in order to protect the innocent, or when overturning a dictator who harms innocent people, or in self-defence, etc. But against prisoners who are no danger any more - never.
    If you read carefully you would have seen that I do not agree with innocent people being involved, thus the reason I do not agree with what happened to Mr Berg. Have you seen the video? Maybe you should....
    I have seen part of the video (not the last part, but enough of it), but what is your argument in this case? Do you think if group A does something cruel to John, then group B has the right to do the same with Harry? I agree with you that what the terrorists did with Nick Berg was absolutely horrible and I agree with the great majority of the western population (and the law) that torturing is very bad, also the torturing of people who are not innocent.
  8. NRG
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    #68  
    A kick.
  9. #69  
    Why are we still in Iraq?

    At this point. I think the U.S. is still in Iraq to prevent a Sunni slaughter.
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