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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    There are US troops in approx. 155 countries (give or take a few)...
    Exactly.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    There are US troops in approx. 155 countries (give or take a few)...
    Apparently, you are trying to say Iraq is just another country... as if there would be other countries where US soldiers are killed on a daily basis, where the US taxpayers spend US$ 130 million per day, where US soldiers routinely tortured prisoners of war (ok, here Afganistan and Guantanamo come to mind), etc. .... Not a very convincing view of the war in Iraq.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Apparently, you are trying to say Iraq is just another country... as if there would be other countries where US soldiers are killed on a daily basis, where the US taxpayers spend US$ 130 million per day, where US soldiers routinely tortured prisoners of war (ok, here Afganistan and Guantanamo come to mind), etc. .... Not a very convincing view of the war in Iraq.
    Not trying to compare every single country. The comment was "There are lots of places where 'we''re still present where there're few good reasons for 'us' still being there." I pointed out that we are present in approx. 155 countries and I am sure that Iraq, Afganistan, and Guantanamo are not the only places where some people might think that we have no reason to be there. 1) The loss of a servicemember in Iraq is no more or less than the loss of a servicemember in Peru, Colombia, Philippines...I could go on and on. 2) Whether is $130 million per day or per month, it is still a big chunk of money (at least for me it is). 3) Is this the first time that we torture others (whether at war or not)? Hmmm...
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Apparently, you are trying to say Iraq is just another country... as if there would be other countries where US soldiers are killed on a daily basis, where the US taxpayers spend US$ 130 million per day, where US soldiers routinely tortured prisoners of war (ok, here Afganistan and Guantanamo come to mind), etc. .... Not a very convincing view of the war in Iraq.
    How many US soldiers 'routinely tortured' how many prisoners of war? What exactly was the routine? You seem to be suggesting that this is some sort of S.O.P. for the US military and by association the US itself. OTOH, while the average USian thinks that the treatment of the aforementioned POWs was wrong, I think they also take into account such things as Daniel Pearl, the four contractors in Fallujah, and Nick Berg. The moral equivalists seem to forget these events, though.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    he he, now that's an oximoron.
    Of course, you meant to say oxymoron. Actually the correct grammatical term is redundant, since being liberal is naturally about open mindedness.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  6. #26  
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    Of course, you meant to say oxymoron. Actually the correct grammatical term is redundant, since being liberal is naturally about open mindedness.
    "of course we must be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out. -Richard Dawkins
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    ...155 countries and I am sure that Iraq, Afganistan, and Guantanamo are not the only places where some people might think that we have no reason to be there...
    The United States was given a perpetual lease on Guantanamo Bay, making it an entity of the US. I wouldn't consider that a foreign country.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    "of course we must be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out. -Richard Dawkins
    Funny you should quote a liberal, open-minded person.
    I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
    -Sir Winston Churchill.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    Of course, you meant to say oxymoron.
    Yup, your probly rite.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    How many US soldiers 'routinely tortured' how many prisoners of war? What exactly was the routine? You seem to be suggesting that this is some sort of S.O.P. for the US military and by association the US itself. OTOH, while the average USian thinks that the treatment of the aforementioned POWs was wrong, I think they also take into account such things as Daniel Pearl, the four contractors in Fallujah, and Nick Berg. The moral equivalists seem to forget these events, though.
    I do not know how many US soldiers routinely tortured how many prisoners, this is part of the investigation, I guess. From the fact that several hundred pictures and also videos from the torturing scenes are known, and that those pictures were circulating quite freely among service members acting as guards, I think "routinely" is a correct term. However, in my post I did stress that the situation in in Iraq is unusual (that was the point of my post), so I am not claiming that prisoners in US custody are always tortured everywhere.

    On the other hand, it is clear that the situation of the prisoners in Guantanamo violates human rights and international law. The fish starts stinking from its head, so Bush and Co. are to blame for the bad example they have given.

    I do not really see what you are trying to say with "[The USians] also take into account such things as Daniel Pearl, the four contractors in Fallujah, and Nick Berg. The moral equivalists seem to forget these events, though."

    Do you want praise for the fact that the US do not behave as bad as the terrorists? Do you want to say the way some soldiers acted is not so bad because the other side is worse?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    And highly trustworthy, too... no proper sources, just first names. "I'm a CIA agent (I'm thinking of leaving them to work for the Mossad. I've heard they pay better)"... it could just as well be invented from start to finish.

    Besides, it tells us little new. After all, we all know the prisoners were treated even worse under Saddam, and that US soldiers are not torturers by definition. Why do you start using THAT as the standard to compare the US treatment of prisoners to? It is true that being sodomised with chemical torches is probably better than being tortured to death, but that does not make the first thing any better.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I do not know how many US soldiers routinely tortured how many prisoners, this is part of the investigation, I guess.
    It seems to me that were it not for the military's investigation (which is where all this information came from, don't forget), then we might not know much of anything about it.
    From the fact that several hundred pictures and also videos from the torturing scenes are known, and that those pictures were circulating quite freely among service members acting as guards, I think "routinely" is a correct term.
    Routinely for those particular guards? Perhaps. Routinely for US soldiers? Non sequitur.
    However, in my post I did stress that the situation in in Iraq is unusual (that was the point of my post), so I am not claiming that prisoners in US custody are always tortured everywhere.
    It hasn't even been established that any significant percentage of Iraqi prisoners have been tortured.
    On the other hand, it is clear that the situation of the prisoners in Guantanamo violates human rights and international law.
    Then perhaps your country would like to host them until their due process can be performed?
    The fish starts stinking from its head, so Bush and Co. are to blame for the bad example they have given.
    That's quite a leap.
    I do not really see what you are trying to say with "[The USians] also take into account such things as Daniel Pearl, the four contractors in Fallujah, and Nick Berg. The moral equivalists seem to forget these events, though."
    It's called perspective.
    Do you want praise for the fact that the US do not behave as bad as the terrorists? Do you want to say the way some soldiers acted is not so bad because the other side is worse?
    No. I'm saying that there should be some perspective before decrying the US, the current political administration, the US army, or its soldiers as a whole. Why do we know anything about this particular situation? Seems to me that it's because the Army launched an investigation last year into it. It then began the process of gathering evidence for criminal prosecution. Since such investigations typically aren't desired to be fruitless, they seem to have proceeded deliberately and took time because they likely wanted to make things stick. Hopefully the release of evidence won't interfere with this process as it might in a typical criminal case. Am I asking for praise because they received relatively better treatment, albiet still torture? No. I'm saying that to smear the US or any group other than those that performed these acts when the information was revealed because 'we' were in the process of preparing to prosecute the perpetrators seems to lack perspective.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    And highly trustworthy, too... no proper sources, just first names.
    Do I even know your first name?
    "I'm a CIA agent (I'm thinking of leaving them to work for the Mossad. I've heard they pay better)"... it could just as well be invented from start to finish.
    Sure it could, but it seemed to me that was a bit of sarcasm. Someone who might not believe that three Iraqi brothers hold these views might accuse them of being faked or engineered by someone such as the CIA.
    Besides, it tells us little new. After all, we all know the prisoners were treated even worse under Saddam, and that US soldiers are not torturers by definition.
    Actually, the latter does seem to be a new stance.
    Why do you start using THAT as the standard to compare the US treatment of prisoners to?
    Perspective.
    It is true that being sodomised with chemical torches is probably better than being tortured to death, but that does not make the first thing any better.
    ITYM it doesn't make it acceptable or good. Unless you think being sodomised with a chemical torch is equal to being tortured to death, and further that the former will be investigated and the perpetrator prosecuted versus with the latter the perpetrator possibly being rewarded?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoozer
    The United States was given a perpetual lease on Guantanamo Bay, making it an entity of the US. I wouldn't consider that a foreign country.
    "The base was established in 1898 when the U.S. obtained control of Cuba from Spain at the end of the Spanish-American War. The U.S. government obtained a permanent lease for the base on February 23, 1903 from the newly independent Cuban state. As of 2004, it is still occupied by the US. The lease was arranged through two agreements signed in 1903 and a treaty of 1934. The terms hold the U.S., for the purposes of operating coaling and naval stations, has "complete jurisdiction and control" of the area, while the Republic of Cuba is recognized to retain ultimate sovereignty. The agreement holds further that the U.S. will pay 2000 gold coins (about $4000 in today's money) each year in rent. Since coming to power, Fidel Castro has steadfastly refused to cash the American rent checks. The U.S. agreed to return fugitives from Cuban law to Cuban authorities and Cuba agreed to return fugitives from U.S. law, for offences committed in Guantanamo Bay, to U.S. authorities."
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

    Wife = Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 755p > Palm Centro > Palm Pixi
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    Then perhaps your country would like to host [the prisoners from Guantanamo] until their due process can be performed?
    We would host them in case there was a reason to. Only there isn't: the US took them as prisoners, it is their responsibility to treat them at least according to the most basic human rights. It is obvious that the US are unwilling to do that, because why else would they keep the prisoners in the lawless territory of Guantanamo? Because of the sunny wheather? Because they happened to have a nice not fully utilised prison there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    I'm saying that to smear the US or any group other than those that performed these acts when the information was revealed because 'we' were in the process of preparing to prosecute the perpetrators seems to lack perspective.
    I am fully aware of the fact that the people who tortured are an exeption from the rule. To say the ones who were stupid enough to be caught on the pictures while torturing are the only ones responsible and the only ones who did anything wrong is too easy though.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby
    Do I even know your first name?
    Did you ever believe anything I stated only because I wrote it?
  18. #38  
    This may be simplistic, but I'd rather be known as someone from a country who has taken pictures of prisoners naked, than as someone from a country that videotapes the beheading of a kidnap victim while shouting god is great and then posts it on the internet.

    It strikes me as funny (sick funny) that the lefties arent cryng about the murder of Mr Nick Berg the way they are about the humiliation of pow's. Is it because Nick wasn't a POW? Or is it because they just want to b!tch about America.

    Ok so we've some bad things in the pursuit of freedom over the years. We've also done much good. If we stopped all the good we do, you'd be b!tchin about that next. I'd like to see the list of good things Islamic terrorists have done. Have their efforts done anything tangible to help anyone?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    This may be simplistic, but I'd rather be known as someone from a country who has taken pictures of prisoners naked, than as someone from a country that videotapes the beheading of a kidnap victim while shouting god is great and then posts it on the internet.
    It indeed is quite obvious that you feel this way, no one would expect anything else. Only that the terrorists are not "someone from a country", they do not represent a country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Ok so we've some bad things in the pursuit of freedom over the years. We've also done much good. If we stopped all the good we do, you'd be b!tchin about that next. I'd like to see the list of good things Islamic terrorists have done. Have their efforts done anything tangible to help anyone?
    It is really odd how suddenly some US citizens start pointing out that the terrorists are worse than the US. Strange that you make a point out of it, is it not self-evident any more?
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Call me a leftist-Chick. Or whatever. But I pity you for preferring one bad thing to another. Videotaping the beheading of a kidnapped victim was absolutely-positively disgusting in the most brutal way possible. It was sickening to no end.
    What the US had done to some prisoners is unspeakable too (masturbate in public, humiliating naked women in front of other prisoners and guards, urinating on prisoners, dog biting prisoners, etc.). If some Iraqis want to behave like animals and with unimaginable vicious manners, we – out of all people – ought to know better. We must condemn what the Iraqis did and be appalled at what we had done as well.
    Never said it was good behavior. It's apalling to me too. I'd just like to see some condemnation of those others as well. I am tired of 'the US did this, the US did that' crap. And as I have said before, people are bad. It matters not what country you're from. I am just tired of all the US bashing from within and without. For those of you within, if it's such a horrible place why do you stay?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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