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  1.    #1  
    I could hardly believe it: in an ABC News PrimeTime Poll, 1011 US adults were asked the following (http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm, background e.g. in http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3955-2061r.htm)

    "I'm going to ask about a few stories in the Bible. [See below.] Do you think that's literally true, meaning it happened that way word-for-word; or do you think it's meant as a lesson, but not to be taken literally?

    - The story of Noah and the ark in which it rained for 40 days and nights, the entire world was flooded, and only Noah, his family and the animals on their ark survived."

    The answers were:

    Literally True 60 %
    Not Literally True 33 %
    No Opinion 7 %

    I really don't understand. Do these 60 % believe we got our brain and our eyes from the Devil, or we got it from God, but are not supposed to use it?

    For those who don't remember: according to the Bible, God said "The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high." That's not a hell of a lot of space, no? Specially considering Noah was "to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." So how did Noah feed the carnivore animals? Did he take extra numbers of herbivore animals, plus of course all plant material needed to feed all the herbivores? Quite a task for a single man, literally.

    That is in Genesis 6 but a few lines later in Genesis 7, God orders Noah "Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth." So apparently God's mind had not been made up regarding numbers in the first order, but as far as we know, Noah did not complain about the short-term changes (the flood was only seven days away by then). Noah was already 600 years old at the time according to the bible, which is a lot for a man, taken literally.

    So then the rain comes, and "The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet" (given that we can detect minute marks of water that has disappeared ages ago on Mars, undoubtedly we can find ample evidence for such an enormous event on Earth, no.....? No?).

    Everything moving on Earth dies (not plants, supposedly, which is good because Noah did not have them on his ark, apart from the food for all the animals). "The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days" - that means you need a LOT of food for all the animals on that rather small ark. However, it takes several more months until Earth is dry and they get off the ark.

    Then, according to the Bible, they start multiplying. Noah plants an vineyard, gets drunk and falls asleep naked in his tent. His son Ham sees him and tells his two brothers. After Noah wakes up, he curses Ham's son Canaan (not Ham, which would probably have been slightly more understandable) and says: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." Not really fair, is it? After all, Canaan had done nothing wrong. Anyway, Noah lives on for another 350 years and then dies, cause of death not specified.

    So 60% of adult US citizens literally believe this story has taken place on our planet, a few thousand years ago.... I guess some of them must be reading this, so maybe you can explain to me: Just about everything we know about geology, zoology, botany, agriculture, breeding, meteorology, must be wrong if this story is true, it is mutually exclusive with the story of Noah. Do you indeed think all of what we know about Earth is wrong? Science is made by the Devil because it contradicts the Bible? Science in general is ok, unless it happens to contradict the Bible interpreted literally? Please help me out, you 60 % of literal believers in the story of Noah.
  2. #2  
    The really alarming thing is that this majority of the population can vote for our political leaders, judges and school board members.
  3. #3  
    It comes down to FAITH.
    Felipe
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  4. #4  
    I believe in the literal story of Noah. I don't know whether the entire earth was covered, or just the world around Noah - I haven't decided yet.

    But the whole scientific proof thing isn't a big deal to me. It's what I believe in my heart that is important. In every religion, faith makes up the difference between the facts you know and the beliefs you have. No matter how much you know, there are still things that don't make sense. Some day it will all make sense, and the explanation will probably be very simple.

    There was an old Star Trek episode where Spock's brain was put somewhere else, and Dr. McKoy was putting the brain back into Spock's head. Dr. McKoy received some extra knowledge (I don't remember from where), and he said, "It is so simple, a child could do this." But when that extra knowledge was taken away, McKoy's "simple" understanding was gone, and the brain replacement surgery seemed overwhelming to him. Like McKoy, once we learn the whole truth, everything will make sense to us in a perfectly logical way.

    It's the same in the scientific world on things as fundamental as the age or expansion of the universe. Dark matter? Dark energy? General relativity vs. quantum physics? Particle/matter duality of light? We really don't have a clue as to how the world around us is all put together - we just do the best we can with the knowledge we have.

    Yes, some religious beliefs seem to contraduct our scientific understanding. But that's ok. We just keep studying, learning (and praying), do the best we can to learn the whole truth.

    By the way, science isn't "of the devil" like you propose. Science is learning the truth about the world created for us. The pursuit of truth is good.
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  5.    #5  
    Originally posted by Felipe
    It comes down to FAITH.
    So FAITH tells you the Noah strory is literally true, which at the same time means everything what science tells us about Earth is wrong, e.g. since there is no sign of a world-wide flood, did I get you correctly?

    And FAITH also makes you believe Noah actually could collect two of each animal species and bring them on his ark, and then e.g. six pairs of each bird species within a week? How did he collect the Polar Bears at the North Pole, and how the Parrots in South America?
  6. #6  
    Originally posted by Zekep
    The really alarming thing is that this majority of the population can vote for our political leaders, judges and school board members.
    No, that's a good thing. Check out the Federalist Papers.
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  7.    #7  
    Originally posted by heberman
    I believe in the literal story of Noah. I don't know whether the entire earth was covered, or just the world around Noah - I haven't decided yet.
    If you believe literally, you have not choice but to believe the whole earth was covered, there is no space for interpretation - earth covered above the mountains, everything moving and breething dead apart from the ark party. Read the Bible.

    Some day it will all make sense, and the explanation will probably be very simple.
    The explanation is simple: the story doesn't make sense, certainly not taken literally. But that is going too far, I know.

    It's the same in the scientific world on things as fundamental as the age or expansion of the universe. Dark matter? Dark energy? General relativity vs. quantum physics? Particle/matter duality of light? We really don't have a clue as to how the world around us is all put together - we just do the best we can with the knowledge we have.
    You are trying quote contradictions in science that don't exist. There's no contradiction in dark matter and no "relativity vs. quantum physics".
    Science isn't "of the devil" like you propose. Science is learning the truth about the world created for us. The pursuit of truth is good.
    I never proposed science is of the Devil, please don't misquote. Apart from that, I like your definition. Only that from doing what you say we learn that the Noah story doesn't make sense. Actually, no science needed, common sense is enough to show it doesn't work.

    By the way: would you agree with me that Noah acts like a stupid *****? First thing he does is getting drunk and cursing his grandson for something his son did, and wants his grandson to become a slave of his other sons??? If I was God, I would have feeled heavily disappointed with him, after having saved Noah and killed just about anybody else.

    And: God forbids eating red meat in that chapter. Do you ever eat red meat? You shouldn't, if you literally believe, no?
  8. #8  
    Originally posted by clulup
    You are trying quote contradictions in science that don't exist. There's no contradiction in dark matter and no "relativity vs. quantum physics".
    Sure there are. Here are some simple examples: Dark matter (and now dark energy to help the math):
    http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0101003

    Relativity vs. quantum physics: http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people...gs/str115.html

    http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people...gs/str115.html

    By the way: would you agree with me that Noah acts like a stupid *****?
    No. Noah was a great man. Although even great people act as idiots sometimes, I don't think we have the whole story here.

    Also, it doesn't say don't eat red meat. The King James version says, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."

    Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all of the Old Testament requirements apply to us today. For example, people were put to death for their ox killing someone or for working on the sabbath day, or for lots of other things that seem weird today.

    There are lots of things about the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, which don't make sense to me. Also, there are lots of things about quantum mechanics, wave-particle duality, and string theory which seem absurd. However, if something doesn't make sense, that doesn't necessarily make it false.
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  9. #9  
    I'll tell you what I don't believe to be true at all.

    History has used the Curse of Caanan to religiously justify the kidnapping and enslavement of Africans.
    The Story goes that Ham (Hebrew for black or hot) is of the "African" Race. Shem his brother is of the Semitic race, and Japeth is of the Caucasian race. Now I say race in the sense of different facial features and hair textures.... etc. You get the drift right...
    So when Ham see's Noah naked and Noah curses Caanan, this was used to say that all African peoples were now meant to be slaves, and thus justification for the slave trade.

    NOW we know that the garden of Eden started from the land in between the Pishon and Gishon Rivers (Blue and Right Nile, right smack in present day Eithopia) and science has proven that Africa as we know it is the cradle of civillization.......

    SO how in the world did three different races of people spring from one man and one woman who were of the same race and living somehwere around the vicinity of present day Eithopia-Egypt-Middle Eastern area. *Note the Middle East region of the world used to all be apart of Africa until the Suez Canal was built, then during World War I War Correspondents started to refer to the area across form the Canal (Israel, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Lebonan, Syria....etc as the Middle East)
    Hogwosh, genetically impossible..... and foolish I say....
    When the dark clouds gather on the horizon, when thunder and lightning fills the sky, When fate is but a glint in the eye of a fallen Rattler, And hopes are lost friends, When the sinew of the chest grows weary from those hard-charging linebackers, And the muscles in the legs grow tired from those hard-charging running backs ... You must remember that the Rattlers will... Strike, Strike, and Strike again.
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by clulup
    I could hardly believe it: in an ABC News PrimeTime Poll, 1011 US adults were asked the following (http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm, background e.g. in http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3955-2061r.htm)

    "I'm going to ask about a few stories in the Bible. [See below.] Do you think that's literally true, meaning it happened that way word-for-word; or do you think it's meant as a lesson, but not to be taken literally?

    - The story of Noah and the ark in which it rained for 40 days and nights, the entire world was flooded, and only Noah, his family and the animals on their ark survived."

    The answers were:

    Literally True 60 %
    Not Literally True 33 %
    No Opinion 7 %

    I really don't understand. Do these 60 % believe we got our brain and our eyes from the Devil, or we got it from God, but are not supposed to use it?

    For those who don't remember: according to the Bible, God said "The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high." That's not a hell of a lot of space, no? Specially considering Noah was "to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." So how did Noah feed the carnivore animals? Did he take extra numbers of herbivore animals, plus of course all plant material needed to feed all the herbivores? Quite a task for a single man, literally.

    That is in Genesis 6 but a few lines later in Genesis 7, God orders Noah "Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth." So apparently God's mind had not been made up regarding numbers in the first order, but as far as we know, Noah did not complain about the short-term changes (the flood was only seven days away by then). Noah was already 600 years old at the time according to the bible, which is a lot for a man, taken literally.

    So then the rain comes, and "The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet" (given that we can detect minute marks of water that has disappeared ages ago on Mars, undoubtedly we can find ample evidence for such an enormous event on Earth, no.....? No?).

    Everything moving on Earth dies (not plants, supposedly, which is good because Noah did not have them on his ark, apart from the food for all the animals). "The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days" - that means you need a LOT of food for all the animals on that rather small ark. However, it takes several more months until Earth is dry and they get off the ark.

    Then, according to the Bible, they start multiplying. Noah plants an vineyard, gets drunk and falls asleep naked in his tent. His son Ham sees him and tells his two brothers. After Noah wakes up, he curses Ham's son Canaan (not Ham, which would probably have been slightly more understandable) and says: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." Not really fair, is it? After all, Canaan had done nothing wrong. Anyway, Noah lives on for another 350 years and then dies, cause of death not specified.

    So 60% of adult US citizens literally believe this story has taken place on our planet, a few thousand years ago.... I guess some of them must be reading this, so maybe you can explain to me: Just about everything we know about geology, zoology, botany, agriculture, breeding, meteorology, must be wrong if this story is true, it is mutually exclusive with the story of Noah. Do you indeed think all of what we know about Earth is wrong? Science is made by the Devil because it contradicts the Bible? Science in general is ok, unless it happens to contradict the Bible interpreted literally? Please help me out, you 60 % of literal believers in the story of Noah.
    No actually it means 93% believe in GOD.

    And by the way, science has proven that a cataclysmic event happened at that period of time.

    Funny the most brilliant scientist in the world believes in GOD !

    It is a choice to believe or not to believe.

    Amazing how people waste valuable time arguing this point ?

    Life is short, go spend time with your family or loved ones, you don't want regets; I wish I had !
  11. #11  
    The reason why poeple argue this point is because there are poeple like Bush that push THEIR idea of morality on others. If Bush had the power he would force his religion down everyone's throat. The difference between him and an islamic extremist terrorist is that he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth unlike some who have no hope no future.
  12. #12  
    But wasting time arguing and trying to convince each other is taking away the thing that matters most, our lives !

    There is so much to experience in life other than debating the age of Noah and how many animals were on the Ark.

    Politics and Religion can bring out the worst in people.

    We need to be constructive, create friendships, share information, help each other out, and not get buried in our diffferences.
  13.    #13  
    Originally posted by jfmcdowell357
    The Story goes that Ham (Hebrew for black or hot) is of the "African" Race. Shem his brother is of the Semitic race, and Japeth is of the Caucasian race [...] So when Ham see's Noah naked and Noah curses Caanan, this was used to say that all African peoples were now meant to be slaves, and thus justification for the slave trade. ...

    NOW we know that the garden of Eden started from the land in between the Pishon and Gishon Rivers (Blue and Right Nile, right smack in present day Eithopia) and science has proven that Africa as we know it is the cradle of civillization.......

    Hogwosh, genetically impossible..... and foolish I say....
    Interesting, I didn't know the Noah story was used as an excuse for slave trade.

    I find it also interesting that some points in the Old Testament have some correct background, e.g. how well the banishment from Eden describes the changes from a hunter gatherer society to an agricultural society. Obviously, some knowledge of the very early days were still present when people started to wright down these things.

    Also the background of the Noah story is quite well documented, it quite likely was a rapid flow of water from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea (http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm - however, there is still controversy about this: http://www.rpi.edu/web/News/press_re.../noahsark.html) that triggered the description in Genesis. How an educated person can take these ancient stories at face value is still an open question to me.
  14.    #14  
    Originally posted by dlbrummels
    Funny the most brilliant scientist in the world believes in GOD !
    And that would be who?
  15.    #15  
    Originally posted by heberman
    There are lots of things about the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, which don't make sense to me.
    So there we have something in common!

    So you think some things in the bible are literally true, while others are not (like that people who work on the Sabbath should be killed). Who gives you a right to chose which part of the bible is correct and which is not, how do you know where gods preferences lie? Why do you chose to literally believe in a story such as that of Noah, since there seems to be a choice in what to believe?

    Just to make sure I get you right: You believe that a 600 year old man collected two (seven e.g. in the case of birds) of each animal species (elefant, giraffe, polar bear, penguin, rattle snake, buffalo, mite, mosquito, desert fox, tapir, tukan, barn-owl, yak, kangaroo, panda, to name only a few) and had all of them on a boat of cypress wood for almost a year? Yes or No?
  16. #16  
    Originally posted by clulup
    And that would be who?
    If I had to guess, Einstein. If so, it only proves that he's never read any of Einstein's writings and has only seen the dice quote.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by jfmcdowell357
    I'll tell you what I don't believe to be true at all. History has used the Curse of Caanan to religiously justify the kidnapping and enslavement of Africans.
    Bigoted people twisting biblical words for their own benefit.

    NOW we know that the garden of Eden started from the land in between the Pishon and Gishon Rivers (Blue and Right Nile, right smack in present day Eithopia)
    How do you know that? It's not in the bible.
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  18. #18  
    Originally posted by Lakers0340
    The reason why poeple argue this point is because there are poeple like Bush that push THEIR idea of morality on others. If Bush had the power he would force his religion down everyone's throat. The difference between him and an islamic extremist terrorist is that he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth unlike some who have no hope no future.
    Dang Bush! All of my problems are his fault!

    Equating President Bush to a terrorist is just stupid. Terrorists kill innocent people. Bush helped stop Saddam from creating more mass graves full of hundreds of thousands of people. Go tell the countless dead Iraqi people, including women and children shot and buried with their hands tied and blindfolded, about what a bad guy Bush is.

    Let's see: a guy straps a bomb to himself, gets on a bus and blows up dozens of people; or drives a plane into a building killing thousands. Then there is Bush fighting back trying to protect the world from terrorists and homocidal dictators. Yeah, some comparison.

    If you don't like Bush's politics, decision to go to war, etc. - fine. People can argue in good faith about that. But comparing him to a terrorist is ridiculous. You sound like one of the extremist mobs we see chanting, "Death to America!" Crazy.
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