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  1.    #21  
    Homer:

    Thank you for pointing out that there are multiple-button mice for the Mac. I'm going to Fry's this weekend to seek one out.

    As for the point being silly, I don't see how. The platform isn't serving my needs to my satisfaction. That doesn't make PCs better than Macs, but it does point to a specific context where PCs might be better suited than Macs -- as opposed to, say, web design, video postproduction or desktop publishing, where I would choose a Mac in a split second.

    I'm sure than someone more knowledgable than myself about Macs (and I freely admit, I'm relatively Mac-illiterate) could point to work-arounds for all my complaints, as you did on the mouse issue. But if the Mac's primary advantage is greater user-friendliness, then there's not much point in telling users to RTFM.

    One thing I think has changed in society is that the base of computer literacy has raised in the last two decades to the point where GUIs are so mainstream that user-friendliness isn't the competitive advantage that it used to be. What distinguishes Macs these days is their hardware (G4 processors, "cool" looking iMacs, transparent cubes, etc.). This will probably change if OS X gets beyond vaporware status. I got to play with a beta for ten minutes, and was blown away.

    I have problems with Mac (hardware and software) and Wintel platforms. I could go on for days about Windows' shortcomings. My point was that for writing, it's easier to edit and nagivate in and between documents with Windows. That's not the same as saying "MacOS sucks." It's about using the right tools for the right job.

    [This message has been edited by Gameboy70 (edited 08-13-2000).]
  2.    #22  
    Originally posted by Vertigo:
    To get to the point, I use both Win98 OSR1 and Mac OS 9.0.4 daily, and I find that the Mac OS just has a more fluid workflow. It's the little things that count here... . Thet ability to hide a whole program (and ALL of it's windows) with a simple click drag with the Mac OS. that isn't possible with multi windowed program on Windows machines is it? correct me if I'm wrong, I would like to know File save dialog boxes are also easier to use with the Mac OS. And none of those.. silly.. forward and back buttons on windows (I know you can get rid of them.. I don't think they should be default) in Win98+.
    The "Show Desktop" icon on the taskbar (near the Start button) hides the whole program. But because I like my windows maximized most of the time, I switch between programs by clicking the program's button on the taskbar, and I don't have to use Show Desktop. I much prefer the taskbar to Finder. I like to just click rather that click/drag. I'm pretty sensitive about how much I have to move the mouse for some reason. I suppose it's why some secretary's still prefer WordPerfect for DOS over Word for Windows: when you're writing, having to reach for the mouse all the time breaks your workflow. Come to think of it, I can get more done in Pico or Vi in *nix. Too bad they don't have Word 97 filters.

    But on the second point, you're absolutely right. File management is much more fluid on the Mac. It's too bad that MS tried to fool people into thinking that IE is really part of the OS. Now we're stuck with browser navigation.

    [This message has been edited by Gameboy70 (edited 08-13-2000).]
  3. #23  
    Since OS X is partly based on FreeBSD, could Apple port it to the Intel architecture?

    ------------------
    James Hromadka
    VisorCentral.com
    Personal Website: http://www.Hromadka.com
  4. #24  
    As for the point being silly, I don't see how.
    The point about the number of buttons on a mouse IS silly. It is platform and OS independant. It is simply a peripheral.

    My point was that for writing, it's easier to edit and nagivate in and between documents with Windows.
    How so? On both OSes I can command-tab to switch between windows. Windows has the task bar, Mac has the floating applications pallette. I DO like how you can add icons to the the task bar for common apps...the MacOS does not have this built-in, though there are plenty of nice add-ons that do this (my favorite being the free task-bar "zmacs Quicklaunch" available at http://www.macdownload.com)

    Since OS X is partly based on FreeBSD, could Apple port it to the Intel architecture?
    They certainly could, but, most likely never will. They make a lot of money on the hardware side of things and they have some magnitude of savings by only concentrating on a certain set of processors and hardware configurations.
  5. #25  
    I also much prefer the Windows taskbar to see what applications are active at a glance without having to use the mouse. I hate having to mouse over to Finder to view my running applications.
    The floating task bar does just that in the Mac OS. But not only that it can be positioned to wherever you want and hidden altogether if you don't want to use it.

    I find the control strip on the Mac to be very useful. It's a little triangle button on the bottom left corner of the screen which when pressed extends to reveal quite a few option. You can change the volume, resolution, color depth, sound input, printer and connect/disconnect from a network or internet connection. I use it all the time to access stuff quickly. Just thought I'd explain it for those non-Mac OS users out there.
  6. #26  
    In my humble opinion:

    Macs are just plain easier to use. It's as simple as that. Try deleting a program in Windows by dragging the program's folder to the recycle bin - oh no! now everything's screwed up! For that matter, don't move anything in Windows to any other location on your hard drive except where it was originally installed. Want to copy that file somewhere else, well you better make sure Windows doesn't think you want to just make a shortcut to the file.

    Why does Windows always assume the user is a complete brain-dead ***** who has never used a computer before? Especially when the operating system is so stupid! "Are you sure you want to permantly delete the contents of your Recycle Bin?" - duh that's why I put them there and that's why I selected "Empty Recycle Bin!

    I like seeing all the details and extensions of files when browsing the hard drive. Sound's easy enough, but I had to search for several minutes to find this option. In the Mac OS, it's right there all the time, easy to find.

    Macs are for power users who know what their doing. For example - Window's Wizards - why take me through step by step to set up something when I can just tab from field to field? Sure Macs have these to, but usually when you're installing software, not just setting up your email program. It might help if the Wizards gave you some additional info, but most don't.

    Windows is ugly. The Mac OS interface just looks better. Everything seems crisper with more definition and you can totally customize everything easily like icons and themes and sounds - try Kaleidescope.

    Windows is buggy as heck. In my experience you can lose everything on your drive if you have any kind of error and have to re-install system software. Macs have a clean-install and I've never lost a file. The time I spend not having to troubleshooting Windows and cheap Wintel hardware is well worth the extra money I paid for my Mac.

    I really believe Apple spends a lot of time making their OS intuitive and elegant - a good balance of form and function, while Micro$oft just trys to add all the features they can.

    Sure Windows is better for some things, like games or spreadsheets, but if you really want to create something great get a Mac and you'll never go back.

    Sorry if this is too much of a rant, but I feel very strongly about this subject, and I am tired of all the brainwashed folks out there who have never used a Mac, yet dis them all the time. - if my co-worker says "Macintrash" one more time......

    ------------------
    I don't do Windows™!
  7.    #27  
    Homer:
    For you mouse issue is silly. For me, it's irritating. Since Windows 95 added context menus to augment right-click functionality I see it as an OS/platform issue; you don't. But as you say, there are alternative mice for the Mac, so I'll hunt one down. Thanks again.
  8. #28  
    Its real simple... stuff runs in windows. Or at least a whole helluva lot more than MacOS. Of course the truly evolved use linux, and i do, but my problems with it are i cant play Janes F-15 or Rogue Spear in Linux. But i can in Windows. And i never did get the USB PPP to work so i have to sync my visor via windows.
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman:
    Its real simple... stuff runs in windows. Or at least a whole helluva lot more than MacOS.
    There are some programs that I can't get for the Mac OS. So I installed Virtual PC (yes, I know it's an emulator and it runs slow) and now I have Windows 98 running on my Mac.

    Although it give me the "willies" to see Windows on my PowerBook, at least I can run the stuff the IT guys won't get Mac versions for...

    BTW Gameboy, I use my Mac for writing primarily. I prefer the interface (but like I said before, I'm use it more often).

    I still think which OS to choose is a matter of preference now. The differences between the two are so minor now...

    ------------------
    Queen of Parts
  10. #30  
    For you mouse issue is silly. For me, it's irritating. Since Windows 95 added context menus to augment right-click functionality I see it as an OS/platform issue; you don't. But as you say, there are alternative mice for the Mac, so I'll hunt one down. Thanks again.
    The mouse issue is silly in the argument of which OS is better. I agree, it is an important issue, but it is independant of the OS...both Mac and Windows (and, I assume, Linux) use contextual menus. The mouse (or other input device) is a peripheral independant of the OS. Right clicking on my Mac gives me the same functionality as right-clicking on my PC.

    C-eye: you said a lot, but is was mosly unsubstantiated opinion. (Which is OK, just not real good debate material).

    Saying one OS is easier to use than another is irrelevant. The OS a person uses the most often is the easiest to use. There are specific elements in an OS that are perhaps easier to use than in another, but you need specifics to back those claims up.

    One advantage that Apple has is that they can target a fairly defined audience. Windows has to be all things to all people, which means there is some unfortunate overhead in implementing a lot of these features.

    Windows is ugly. The Mac OS interface just looks better. Everything seems crisper with more definition and you can totally customize everything easily like icons and themes and sounds - try Kaleidescope.
    This is mostly opinion...hard to substantiate. Also, you can completely tweak the Windows interface just as you do the Mac's.

    I really believe Apple spends a lot of time making their OS intuitive and elegant - a good balance of form and function, while Micro$oft just trys to add all the features they can.
    This is mostly true. As I mentioned, Microsoft has to be all things to all people. Apple can cater to a certain crowd. Unfortunately, I believe apple's dedication to the UI is slipping. The new Quicktime and Sherlock interfaces are terrible...little thought put into both of them as far as usability goes.

    Its real simple... stuff runs in windows. Or at least a whole helluva lot more than MacOS.
    What do you mean by that? That there are more programs available for Windows? That's true, but that' not really an argument for one OS being better than the other...
  11. #31  
    Let me start by listing the systems I have used: Commodore 64, Zenith 8086 portable (one big sucker) Apple IIe, Zenith 386sx, homebuilt 80286, homebuilt 486, homebuilt P-200, finally a homebuilt P-III/450 with Mandrake 7.1 and W98. I also have a Toshiba 400CS laptop that I haven't put an OS on.

    I use MACs at school quite alot. We have G3s, G4s, Imacs, ibooks, and older PPC macs. We also have w95, w98 and w2k systems, and a few linux boxes scattered around students' rooms. I personally use W98 for games and a cheap scanner that doesn't work in linux. I'd have to say that each OS has its strong points. Macs kick *** in the graphics design area, but PCs are rapidly catching up. Linux is good for its use of older hardware, and Windoze is great for people who want the widest base of support.

    Live and let live, people. You'll be happier for it.
  12. SCM
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    #32  
    Homer stated:
    "The mouse issue is silly in the argument of which OS is better. I agree, it is an important issue, but it is independant of the OS...both Mac and Windows (and, I assume, Linux) use contextual menus. The mouse (or other input device) is a peripheral independant of the OS. Right clicking on my Mac gives me the same functionality as right-clicking on my PC."

    Homer,

    I think that you are missing some the impact that the OS has on the right mouse function. It is true that if you are using a Microsoft program (or some other program that supports right mouse features) you can use a right mouse button on a Mac just as you would on a PC. However, I am not aware of any file managment menus that can be accessed through a right mouse button on a Mac. From Windows, I can send files to the Zip drive or to an email recipient just by right mouse clicking and going to Send To... I can also access the desktop properties directly from the right mouse menu instead of having to go to the Apple and down to control panal. Many of the desktop customization features are accessable easily this way.

    But more important than that, Windows chose to make the right mouse feature an intergal part of the operating system. This means that ALL PCs ship with a mouse equipped with right mouse button. That may seem trivial to you, but I work at an University where we use many computers at different locations. Unfortunatly, most of them are Macs. When I go to the lecture rooms to give a class, if I want to have right mouse abilities, I would have to bring my own mouse and hook it up in each room I go to. If the university had installed PCs, then all the computers would automatically have right mouse function--I wouldn't have to bring my own mouse!! The OS does directly impact the hardware that is shipped with a computer!!

    If you haven't used a right mouse much, you may not understand my enthusiasm over it. But once you learn to use it, you feel lost when it is not available.

    Stephen

  13. #33  
    I guess this is turning into a debate on the philosophy of the mouse.

    However, I am not aware of any file managment menus that can be accessed through a right mouse button on a Mac.
    Ah...finally...a SPECIFIC COMMENT!

    I agree, there aren't any default FILE MANAGEMENT menus available in the Mac's contextual menus. I wish there were. There are a lot of free add-ons to add that functionality, but, no, it is not built in.

    I can also access the desktop properties directly from the right mouse menu
    You can do that on the Mac too.

    But more important than that, Windows chose to make the right mouse feature an intergal part of the operating system.
    First of all, let's seperate the term 'right mouse click' from 'contextual menus'. The concept of contextual menus largely belongs to Windows. They deserve a lot of credit for that. It truly adds a layer of usefulness to the UI.

    It took mac until OS 8 to steal that idea. They should have stolen it a lot sooner.

    Now, onto the mouse debate. I can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on it if I wanted to (Mac or PC). I can also buy a digitizing table, trackball, joystick, touchpad, etc...these are all just input peripherals and are not dependant on the OS.

    Why did Apple go with the one-button mouse? It's simple. If any of you have ever tried to teach any computer class to 'regular' computer users you will know how foreign the terms "double-click" and "click and drag" are to people. Adding the second button, by default, just confuses them that much more.

    To be honest, I think all new computers should ship with one-button mice. Then, the computer user that knows what he/she is doing, can upgrade to their umpteen-button mouse.

    I like my 4-button mouse, but also realize it isn't helping my carpal tunnel...

  14. #34  
    Originally posted by JHromadka:
    Since OS X is partly based on FreeBSD, could Apple port it to the Intel architecture?
    I remember seeing something about Rhapsody, a prototype OS, being ported to the Intel architecture.

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    -Jeff318
  15. SCM
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    #35  
    Originally posted by homer:

    First of all, let's seperate the term 'right mouse click' from 'contextual menus'.
    OK, if we want to make this a debate on semantics, then I concede the point to you, Homer. But I do think this is more than an issue about "mouse philosophy", it is an issue of productivity--how quickly can one acomplish the task they set down at their computer to do. The ease with which Windows allows you to 'access the contextual menus' makes me more productive when I'm using my PC.

    Originally posted by homer:

    To be honest, I think all new computers should ship with one-button mice. Then, the computer user that knows what he/she is doing, can upgrade to their umpteen-button mouse.

    Logitech, Microsoft Mouse, and all other manufactures thank you for your support! ; )

    But onto other issues. One of the frustrations that I have with Mac OS involes copying files from a disk to the desktop. I admitt that this is probably an ignorance problem on my part--so teach me!! When I drag an icon from a disk folder to the Mac desktop, it doesn't copy the file to the Mac, it just moves the icon. Then, if I eject the disk without returning the icon to the disk folder, the file appears lost on the file until I return to that same computer and drag the icon back to disk. If I drag from a disk folder to a specific folder, then it will copy. Again, this is an issue when I go to a lecture room and want to copy my presentation off the disk and onto the hardrive of the lecture room computer, but I want to access it from the desktop. What am I doing wrong?

    Stephen



    [This message has been edited by SCM (edited 08-16-2000).]
  16. #36  
    scm --

    Hold down Control (I Think) when dragging to the desktop. This will force the system to make a copy to the desktop. This works equally as well when copying between folders on the same drive.

    (note: I am not in front of a Mac right now, but if its not control, it is either Option or Command ...)

    Joe
  17. #37  
    It's option . (hehe, sorry about that, I said command before without even thinking)

    At least you can drag things from the desktop to the HD or disk. Everything appears right on the desktop on the Mac. Does it in Windows? No, disks appears in a special folder along with, control panels????? There just isn't any logic to it. The disks are the root of everyting, so why are they in a folder on the desktop?

    In Windows it is so awkward to navigate through the windows that I don't even bother. I spend the majority of the time looking for something in explorer and then copying it. Windows just isn't as smooth to operate. I feel like I'm a robot or something everytime I use it(an impaired robot that can't do 20 million calculations per second).

    [This message has been edited by lennonhead (edited 08-16-2000).]
  18. #38  
    What am I doing wrong?
    You've pointed out a flaw in the Mac OS...that's good debate fodder!

    EVERY disk volume on a mac (hard drives, CDs, floppies, ZIPs, etc...) EACH have their own 'desktop'. The problem, as you have pointed out, is that they all share the SAME VISIBLE desktop. This is incredibly confusing for new Mac users to grasp, and understandably so!

    On a mac, when you drag a file from one directory to another directory ON THE SAME VOLUME, it simply moves it. In your case, you are dragging it from the root directory of the floppy to the desktop directory.

    If you move a file from one volume to another, then it COPIES the file. To force a file to be COPIED to the hard drive's desktop, you need to hold down the option key.

    I agree, it is confusing if you've never done it before.

    Is it better or worse than the PC implementation? Hard to say. I don't like how Windows does not show volumes on the desktop, but rather shows them in the 'explorer'. This bends the metaphor of the desktop a bit.
  19. SCM
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    #39  
    Thanks for the file managment tips!

    I have another problem with the Mac that may be more of a hardware problem than the OS, but, again, with Mac, its hard to separate the issues. This one actually suprises me!

    I use MS Powerpoint alot to put together lectures. I put alot of graphic and clinical photographs in my lectures to help students visualize what we are discussing. I also us animation alot to illustrate points, and just to liven things up. I find that the PC runs the presentation MUCH quicker and smoother than the Mac. This shocks me because I thought this was Mac's strength. I often have to go to "Get Info" for Powerpoint on the Mac, and raise the amount of memory alotted to the program for it to run. If I leave it at this setting after I'm finished, it screws up other programs. I find that many presenters are having to chop their presentations into multiple files just to get the Mac to work. And we are running G3s!!

    I actually suspect that some of this problem results from the fact that Microsoft writes their programs first for the Windows format, then comes back and duct tapes them together to run on the Mac OS. Whatever the reason, it is a daily nuisance!

    Stephen
  20. #40  
    I actually suspect that some of this problem results from the fact that Microsoft writes their programs first for the Windows format, then comes back and duct tapes them together to run on the Mac OS.
    Yup. Though Office 2001 is supposed to remedy that! Powerpoint is a terrible program. Unfortunately, it is the ONLY viable program for presentations (thanks Microsoft!).

    Also, a lot of programs on the mac install, by default, with low memory settings. I usually up the memory settings for ALL of my apps on the Macs.
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