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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by SherylKing:
    As a caveat to those reading this board who are unfamiliar with that poster, he is a Pocket PC advocate who lurks on this board trashing the Palm OS. As they say, "consider the source."

    Curiously, the term "Foo Fighter" was used during World War II. Irregularities on the airframes of high flying aircraft would produce plasma which, at night, would glow and be confused for other aircraft. In short, a "Foo Fighter" could be defined as a ball of hot air which can be safely ignored by pilots.

    Just an observation.
  2. #22  
    Hey, I like that!

    Actually, I was just using the name from my favorite alternative rock group. But, I was aware of the WWII connotative meaning, just not exactly what it was.

    As to the idea that I'm a PocketPC advocate? This is absolutely crazy, and anyone who believes this in quite uninformed! In fact, you obviously haven't read some my postings in other discussions. I've actually become quite critical of the PocketPC. The OS is still bloated, the interface looks like something that was designed by committee, the hardware is insanely over-priced, and the software support is next to nothing! I think it's hilarious that Palm has Microsoft's nuts in a vice!

    Let me say for the record that I love the Palm platform, in fact I own a Visor and a Palm Vx. I simply want Palm to engineer the features of the PPC into their OS. I'm actually very excited about Palm's wireless plans. They recently purchased Actual Software to grab their popular email application called MultiMail. And the purchased Anyday.com for its web calendaring tools. Now, if they can layer that over an interface with a higher res color screen, and digital audio (which the Sony Palm will supposedly have) then they have a hands down winner! As I've said for some time now, if Palm (or a licensee such as HS or Sony) would develop such as handheld, PocketPC is as good as dead.

    But to simply label me a PocketPC advocate just because I point out its positive aspects is unfair. Did it ever occur to you that there may actually be a few things that Microsoft did right? I don't like the rather ignorant attitude here that sometimes precludes that everything Palm produces is gold!, while everything Microsoft produces is garbage!

    [This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 06-11-2000).]
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by foo fighter:

    In fact, you obviously haven't read some my postings in other discussions.

    Wrong again, I'm afraid. I have seen your posts, and was particularly struck by one where you reponded to somebody who complained it was very difficult to enter data into his instructor's Pocket PC by saying, "If you think it's easier on a Palm, you're wrong."

    I think it's very curious that a self-proclaimed fan of the Palm OS has never heard of the GoType or Stowaway keyboards (ignoring, for the time being, a host of software based alternate data entry systems for the Palm OS) or is willing to pretend they don't exist to try to score points for the Pocket PC.

    I was also impressed by your claim that the term "ebook" really referred to font enhancing software, which by the purest of coincidences, happens to be available on the Pocket PC but not the Palm OS. This is a bit like claiming the Visor won't fit in your pocket, because "Pocket" is not part of the name of the device.

  4. #24  


    I made that response based on the idea of handwriting input. Not a keyboard. If you remember correctly, he was commenting on how difficult it is to enter large amounts of text into the Jornada. I responded by indicating that large scale text entry would be equally difficult on the Visor as well, mainly because both the PocketPC and the Visor use Graffiti. I think you would agree that if both recognize the same input, then how could the experience be any different on a Palm based handheld for inputting large chunks of data. You may also remember that I agreed with his assumption that a laptop would have been better suited to that particular task.

    Originally posted by John Nowak:
    I think it's very curious that a self-proclaimed fan of the Palm OS has never heard of the GoType or Stowaway keyboards
    Of course I've heard of a GoType keyboard. In fact, at one time I almost purchased one. However, I really don't need an add-on keyboard for simple everyday character input. I was very impressed with it, but I love the Stowaway! It looks like the Palm V when folded. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to use one.

  5. #25  
    Originally posted by John Nowak:
    ...pretend they don't exist to try to score points for the Pocket PC.
    Score points for the PocketPC? I could care less who buys what handheld! Regardless, this is a dead issue. PocketPC will be dead within a year! Sony is developing a Palm based handheld with MP3 or digital audio playback, or haven't you heard? Personally, I don't even like the PocketPC OS, just the embedded features. Eventually, I hope, these same features will find their way into the PalmOS. I simply don't like Palm's attitudes that preclude the notion that I don't need an MP3 player, or that I don't need to be reading books on my handheld. Quite frankly, I think they're missing the boat!

    I was also impressed by your claim that the term "ebook" really referred to font enhancing software, which by the purest of coincidences, happens to be available on the Pocket PC but not the Palm OS. This is a bit like claiming the Visor won't fit in your pocket, because "Pocket" is not part of the name of the device.
    Well John, this is a fairly easy point to defend. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face, that fonts and text appear better and more readable on a Visor/Palm than they do on a PPC using ClearType? Granted, part of this readability is due to the color display, but ClearType text looks very smooth and Anti-aliased. ebook readability on a Palm is acceptable, but not great. Instead of arguing with me on this point, did it ever occur to you that maybe Palm should do something to address this issue?

    I'm only trying to offer the idea that this platform could use some improvement.

    [This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 06-11-2000).]
  6. #26  
    Wow talk about off topic
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by foo fighter:
    Well John, this is a fairly easy point to defend. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face, that fonts and text appear better and more readable on a Visor/Palm than they do on a PPC using ClearType?
    Which has what, exactly, to do with the fact that you arbitrarily redefined the word "ebook?"

    The issue is not if the Palm OS can be improved; it's whether or not you should be taken seriously when you discuss it.
  8. #28  
    Originally posted by John Nowak:
    Which has what, exactly, to do with the fact that you arbitrarily redefined the word "ebook?"
    So, in other words the Rocket Ebook from NuvoMedia isn't an ebook reader? After all, they use a similar technology as well. And to my knowledge, even Palm has never characterized their handhelds as *ebook* readers! Neither has Handspring. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

    The issue is not if the Palm OS can be improved; it's whether or not you should be taken seriously when you discuss it.
    Alright John, what would you rather I do? Say nothing but great things about this OS? Should I simply say the Palm operating system and all of its embedded applications are perfect and need no improvement whatsoever? That we should all hold hands (no pun intended) and sing together in harmony? Please! These are consumer electronic devices, not cult icons! The companies that manufacture these products should be held under the same scrutiny as any other. Did you read about the problems Palm is having with the IIIc case cracking issue? So, should we all go out a stupidly purchase a IIIc? Of course not! It's by not buying a product that we as consumers vote NO to a product! Case in point: Windows CE, we don't want *Windows* on our handhelds! Which is why, ultimately PocketPC will die! We all know that Microsoft will never make a dent in the PDA market because they continually attempt to leverage their PC OS into handhelds. I think Walt Mossberg from the WallStreet Journal said it best in his review.."PocketPC fails to capture Palm's magic". The desktop metaphor doesn't work, and never will! But, I would hardly call MP3 playback a *Desktop* feature. Does anyone here really use their laptop as portable MP3 player, or to read books on?

    And lets not forget, I didn't start this issue. The topic was about the ActiveSky movie player coming to the Palm platform. Speaking from the perspective of someone who is already using this application, let me say that this really isn't a big deal. I have it on my Jornada, and I don't even use it! There are a few clever shorts from AtomFilms, but until we see the days of cheap wireless access with streaming video, this is nothing more than a memory hog! The true killer apps are color, digital audio, wireless connectivity, and ebooks. All of which Palm can easily add, and for the most part are moving in that direction. They just need to carry it further.



    [This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 06-11-2000).]
  9. #29  
    Let me add this final statement to this discussion: I apologize if I "over criticize" the Palm platform. But you must understand that neither the OS or the applications have changed since 1996 for Christ sake! I'm sorry John if I sometimes come off as sounding "pro-PocketPC". It's simply that I often feel betrayed by a company that has promoted it's product as simply the best, but meanwhile has done nothing to innovate! I've stood back and watch Palm's competitors such as Microsoft add features and innovative solutions that I've wanted on my Palm(s) for a long time. Palm's response has been to tell me (the end user) that I don't need this level of functionality....BULLS*T!!!. If it's one thing I can't stomach, it's arrogance. And Palm has illustrated arrogance in the worst form! Case in point: A couple weeks ago Carl Yankowski made a statement that Palm has the best handheld design of any company in the industry. Uh, earth to Carl!, the Jornada PocketPC has a thin, sleek metal case, as apposed to the cheap ****ty plastic of the IIIc! And here is another news flash, the Jornada 540 is actually less expensive than the Palm IIIc! Personally, I expected Palm to at least lower the retail price of the IIIc by $50 after the PocketPC launch in April. Well, it has now been two months, and the IIIc still retails for $450. I like it when OEMs try to kiss my *** to get me to purchase their products, but so far Palm apparently would much rather I kiss their ***! Screw this!

    At times, there seems to be this attitude that Palm is somehow immune to improvements in technology. It's as if they think that all technology innovation stopped in 1996 when the first Pilot rolled out the door. Could someone please explain this to me? I don't understand why some people (including Palm) seem to thing that the entire future of handheld computing consists of nothing more than a digital organizer? If this really is true, then all I can say is...the future looks pretty damn boring!
  10. pk
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    #30  
    I thought this was about movies on the Palm?

    I'd like to see a movie about springboards on my visor...although it would be very short...at least I'd have somekind of springboard on my visor.

    [This message has been edited by pk (edited 06-11-2000).]
  11. #31  
    Whoa...there's some temper's flying in here!

    Foo...for the most part, I can see where you are coming from. Clearly, Palm and "the gang" could be doing a bit more to evolve the technology at a faster pace.

    However, you need to realize that Palm isn't necessarily TRYING to be a full-featured, whiz-bang hand-held computer. The palm is a PDA first and foremost, and a damn good one at that.

    And there are some benefits to the long-standing simplicity of the OS and the device...namely plenty of backwords compatibility. A vast majority of Palm software out there will run on the vast majority of Palm devices. This is actually a great benefit.

    Considering Palm's target demographic tends to consist of a lot of business-suit wearing, golf playing people who just want a good PDA, it doesn't necessarily make sense for Palm to develop a more expensive, less compatible device that happens to play movies.

    And, one could say that the failure of the Pocket PC in the market proves that people don't need/want those features in a PDA.

    All that said, I DO wish that Palm would do some things to advance the device, just as you have mentioned, Foo. Namely, I'd like to see:
    1) Higher resolution screens
    2) Better handwriting recognition

    The nice thing about the above two features is that they could be completely backwords compatible with all current software.
  12. #32  
    You know, Foo, for awhile there back in March i would have agreed with the sentiments of the others in thinking that you were strictly a PPC user on this board to 'stir things up'. However, after reading many of your posts (especially since the PPC came out), i've noticed that you do look at both OS's and point out areas where the rival companies can improve. Infact, it was some of your posts that became the catalyst for my recent thoughts about the PalmOS and the Visor i currently own. (See our other discussion http://discussion.visorcentral.com/F...L/000177.html)

    After 'freeing' my mind and realizing that even my current Visor is not EXACTLY what i want in a PDA (and HOPE that things won't stay this way for long) I read your posts with a different 'voice' in my head (as we all have a way of reading a post based on the name you see on the left and posts you've read from that name before...don't deny it).
    I agree with your statement that we can't all just sit around singing the praises of the current PalmOS and how great it is and ...you get the picture. As my dad once said "conversations can get pretty boring if everybody agrees with each other all the time".
    We all have the right to point out deficiencies in any product we purchase. We ALSO have the right to make statements about what we'd like to see. Even if that means comparing it to another product!
    I wish people would stop becoming so 'fanatical' (I know..too strong of a word but i couldn't think of anything else) about products in this world. These companies are not paying off my debts or giving me a hug before i go to sleep at night! why do we defend them like they are a loved one instead of looking at them as products and how we can improve them to get our money's worth (and what we want) at the end of the day?
    Lighten up people. Priorities! Just because somebody points out a flaw in the visor doesn't mean we rip their head off (figuratively speaking of course ).

    Wow, i'm getting preachy. sorry. I just started reading this thread and was aghast at the accusations over ...what? a PDA! and somebody who was making a comparison and pointing out some flaws!
    As i've stated in the other thread (link above) I LLLLOOOVEE my visor. but that doesn't mean i long for something better. That doesn't mean i get angry when foo points out a feature that the visor can't do that the PPC can. In the past i may have, but i had a 'come to jesus' thought (a phrase we've been using lately..funny) and realized that i need to relax on the this whole visor patriotism thing and look at how things can improve...otherwise, (here comes that old saying...) 'we'd still be driving a horse and carriage'...which we don't (see this post: http://discussion.visorcentral.com/F...L/000184.html)

    this message too long. must end now.

    Sorry for taking up your time!
  13. #33  
    Originally posted by foo fighter:

    So, in other words the Rocket Ebook from NuvoMedia isn't an ebook reader? After all, they use a similar technology as well. And to my knowledge, even Palm has never characterized their handhelds as *ebook* readers! Neither has Handspring. If I'm wrong, please correct me.(edited 06-11-2000).]
    Now, now. You know full well that neither Handspring nor Palm make ebook software for their platforms. There's over 20 software descriptions on PalmGear that use the term "Ebook," and the term is used on both the QVadis and Peanut Press websites.

    "Properly speaking, only color televisions can be called televisions."

    "That's ridiculous. Black and white televisions are also televisions."

    "Are you saying you prefer black and white to color?"

    "I'm saying a black and white television is still a television."

    "Oh yeah? Well how come AT&T doesn't call their products televisions?"

    "Because AT&T doesn't make televisions."

  14. #34  
    Originally posted by foo fighter:
    Alright John, what would you rather I do? Say nothing but great things about this OS? Should I simply say the Palm operating system and all of its embedded applications are perfect and need no improvement whatsoever?
    I was wondering when your knee would jerk in this direction. I don't believe that I've made a single negative reference to the Pocket PC on this board, or any other (although I did have to laugh at the latest claim that the MS breakup would kill the device over on PalmStation).

    I'm not an OS bigot; in fact, I presently own three different computers using three differed operating systems. None of them use Windows CE, so I'd enjoy hearing from a credible source comparing the Pocket PC and the Palm OS. Do you happen to know any?
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by John Nowak:
    I'm not an OS bigot; in fact, I presently own three different computers using three differed operating systems.
    Oh god! That's a good one!!! I had to pick myself up off the floor on that one! Yes, John I'm sure you look at every handheld platform with a high degree of selective reasoning...just as long as it wears the Palm logo!

    Unlike you, I look at innovative ideas in every handheld platform. Hell, I was even impressed with Symbian devices, the Revo in particular. The same is true with desktop Operating Systems. In fact, if the specs and performance of MacOS X are as good as they look in demos, I may be purchasing my first Mac in the future. Open your mind John!

    I don't believe that I've made a single negative reference to the Pocket PC on this board, or any other
    That's odd...I don't recall accusing you of bashing PPC? Yet on the other hand you accuse me of Palm bashing. Interesting isn't it? I offer you the benefit of the doubt, yet you won't return the favor!

    ...I'd enjoy hearing from a credible source comparing the Pocket PC and the Palm OS. Do you happen to know any
    Well, I guess we have something in common. I didn't consider you a credible source either, and still don't. You are very obviously a Palm zealot who will attack anyone here for saying positive things about a competing product. God forbid I made the horrible mistake of using the word: PocketPC in a post. Hmm, why do I have the suspicion that if I had trashed the PocketPC you would have found me to be a very credible source?

    And in case you haven't noticed, there are more than a few people here who agree with me on this topic. Are they Palm bashers as well?

    [This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 06-12-2000).]
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by foo fighter:
    Hmm, why do I have the suspicion that if I had trashed the PocketPC you would have found me to be a very credible source?
    Probably because you are a fool. As it so happens, I have Psion Series 7 which I'm quite happy with.

    Originally posted by foo fighter:

    And in case you haven't noticed, there are more than a few people here who agree with me on this topic. Are they Palm bashers as well?

    [This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 06-12-2000).]
    No, I don't think they are.
  17. #37  
    It's so warm and fuzzy in here I can hardly stand it. I will say this though, foo's gotten a little more agressive in his posting as of late. Take a few examples:

    ...Palm's response has been to tell me (the end user) that I don't need this level of functionality....BULLS*T!!!.

    ...as apposed to the cheap ****ty plastic of the IIIc...

    ...the future looks pretty damn boring

    Just because you have a narrow, ignorant view of handheld computing devices...

    ...neither the OS or the applications have changed since 1996 for Christ sake!
    At least we know he's eating his Wheaties. Well foo, I'm very glad that your Jornada works well for you. I've used one, it's a beautiful machine. However, I'm still using my (as you would say overpriced, underfeatured) Palm IIIc. Why? Because I want to. Simple enough. Can I play MP3's? No. Do I have a "sleek metal case"? Nope. Am I stuck with a 160 x 160 "pixelated screen"? You betcha! And yet I still use this archaic device! Am I crazy? No.

    The IIIc meets my needs. I don't need MP3. You might, but I don't. I don't need a high-res screen. It doesn't hurt my eyes. I'm content with my Palm-books (e-books or not, they still have the same content!). I have all the phone numbers I need, I have my AvantGo channels just the way I like them, e-mail works fine, DateBk4 rocks, and all in all, I'm a happy camper.

    Does your Jornada outperform my IIIc in many areas? Yeah, it does. Do I think PPC's are good machines? They're great. Like you said, they are innovative, always adding new features. I just don't need what they're adding. IMO, Palm got it right in 1996. There isn't a whole lot I need them to add. I'm looking forward to wireless, but for now, I can wait. So I guess I'm snug as a bug with my "inferior" IIIc. I just hope that if your Jornada ever sees my IIIc, it doesn't beat him up on the playground. Maybe we could learn to play nice, huh?

    [This message has been edited by Hawkeye (edited 06-12-2000).]
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by John Nowak:
    Probably because you are a fool
    There is an old rule in the art of debate that says when one person begins throwing abusive personal attacks at another, it usually indicates that the former has lost the argument to the latter.

    Originally posted by Hawkeye: The IIIc meets my needs. I don't need MP3. You might, but I don't. I don't need a high-res screen. It doesn't hurt my eyes. I'm content with my Palm-books (e-books or not, they still have the same content!). I have all the phone numbers I need, I have my AvantGo channels just the way I like them, e-mail works fine, DateBk4 rocks, and all in all, I'm a happy camper.
    Hawkeye, I didn't mean to imply that the Palm IIIc is a piece of crap, just that Palm needs to smooth out a few rough edges.

    Quote from Hawkeye: I will say this though, foo's gotten a little more aggressive in his posting as of late.
    Yes, but you will notice these were in response to an equally aggressive remark made by other individuals.

  19. #39  
    Originally posted by Hawkeye:
    Well foo, I'm very glad that your Jornada works well for you.
    Actually, it hasn't all worked out for me. Because there is such limited software support for PPC, I've found myself using my Palm Vx a bit more lately. One example is the lack of good database software. Primarily I've used HanDBase. But on the PocketPC there is no comparable application, except for a program called eWallet...which sucks! I've also enjoyed using OnTap show guides for events such as the upcoming PCExpo, but there are no comparable offerings to the PPC.

    To be honest, I've actually been eyeing the Palm IIIc once or twice at my local Circuit City. I am a bit tempted, and to be honest, the color display on the IIIc is actually brighter and offers richer looking colors than the CTSN display on the Jornada.

    I may yet sell my Vx and the Visor to get a IIIc.
  20. #40  
    This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen this latest news item at CNET?
    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200...e.1002.tgif.ni
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