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  1. #141  
    Originally posted by yardie
    [...] What if you try and you fail. [...]
    Thinking like that is the problem.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #142  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Well I said I was poor yesterday because my family have to work very hard to make ends meet.
    So does mine, but then again, everything's relative. The ends you make meet are obviously a bit higher level than what people really need to survive.
    We are above the so-called poverty line, so technically speaking I am not poor. I think there are different levels of poverty. Living from pay check to pay check is borderline poverty.
    In that case, everyone I know is poor.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #143  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Thinking like that is the problem.
    'failure is not an option'?

    How is his thinking the problem? **** happens and a lot of people try a lot time after time. But a lot of times the odds are against them and they are fighting things that out of their control...

    But if it is the problem what would you say is the answer?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  4. #144  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    'failure is not an option'?
    That's not what I said. Assuming you will fail will lead to failure.
    How is his thinking the problem?
    Again, assuming you will fail will lead to failure.
    **** happens and a lot of people try a lot time after time. But a lot of times the odds are against them and they are fighting things that out of their control...
    Have you ever met any of these people and spent any significant amount of time with them?
    But if it is the problem what would you say is the answer?
    Stop assuming that you will fail. "Lose yourself" in the pursuit.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #145  
    Uh, simple...you try again

    Originally posted by yardie
    What if you try and you fail.
    "Stupid Handspring."
  6. #146  
    My contention is that there is welfare, but it's focus is totally out of whack. As was brought up earlier, we only give fish, we do not encourage fishing.

    The education and welfare systems are perfect examples of how throwing money at a problem rather than encouraging self-reliance and productivity are destroying motivation. (For both the producer and the lazy POS that wants to do nothing)



    Originally posted by yardie
    Well you are saying that it works. Mike STh is saying that we have never tried it. Which is it? I thought there was welfare in the U.S.


    "Stupid Handspring."
  7. #147  
    Excellent points all, because that is exactly what I would have said!

    Originally posted by Toby
    [B]So does mine, but then again, everything's relative.

    The ends you make meet are obviously a bit higher level than what people really need to survive.

    In that case, everyone I know is poor.
    "Stupid Handspring."
  8. #148  
    Just found this from the book I mentioned earlier...wish I could find it in E-book, but check oout the following passage...it's a little long, but illustrates my point.

    Excerpt from Ayn Rand's novel "Atlas Shrugged" - pp616-627

    "Well, there was something that happened at that plant where I worked for
    twenty years. There were three of them, two sons and a daughter, and they
    brought a new plan to run the factory. They let us vote on it, too, and
    everybody - almost everybody - voted for it. We didn't know. We thought
    it was good. No, that's not true, either. We thought that we were supposed
    to think it was good. The plan was that everybody in the factory would
    work according to his ability, but would be paid according to his need.
    We - what's the matter, ma'am? Why do you look like that?"

    "What was the name of the factory?" she asked, her voice barely audible.

    "The Twentieth Century Motor Company, ma'am, of Starnesville, Wisconsin."

    "Go on."

    "We voted for that plan at a big meeting, with all of us present, six
    thousand of us, everybody that worked in the factory. The Starnes heirs
    made long speeches about it, and it wasn't clear, but nobody asked any
    questions. None of us knew just how the plan would work, but every one of
    us thought that the next fellow knew it. And if anybody had doubts, he
    felt guilty and kept his mouth shut - because they made it sound like
    anyone who'd oppose the plan was a child-killer at heart and less than
    a human being.
    (emphasis mine...ring any bells?) They told us that the plan would acheive a noble idea.
    Well, how were we to know otherwise? Hadn't we heard it all our lives -
    from our parents and our schoolteachers and our ministers, and in every
    newspaper we ever read and every movie and every public speech? Hadn't
    we alwasy been told that this was righteous and just? Well, maybe
    there's some excuse for what we did at that meeting. Still, we voted
    for the plan - and what we got, we had it coming to us. You know,
    ma'am, we are marked men, in a way, those of us who lived through the
    four years of that plan of the Twentieth Century factory. What is it
    that hell is supposed to be? Evil - plain, naked smirking evil, isn't
    it? Well, that's whatwe saw and helped to make - and I think we're
    damned, every one of us, and maybe we'll never be forgiven...
    "Do you know how it worked, that plan, and what it did to people? Try
    pouring water into a tank where there's a pipe at the bottom draining
    it out faster than you can pour, and each bucket you bring breaks the
    pipe an inch wider, and the harder you work the more is demanded of
    you, and you stand slinging buckets forty hours per week, then forty-
    eight, then fifty-six - for your neighbour's supper, for his wife's
    operation - for his child's measles - for his mother's wheel chair -
    for his uncle's shirt - for his nephew's schooling - for the baby
    next door - for the baby to be born - for anyone anywhere around you -
    it's theirs to receive, from diapers to dentures - and yours to work,
    from sunup to sundown, month after month, year after year, with nothing
    to show for it but your sweat, with nothing in sight for you but their
    pleasure, for thw whole of your life, without rest, without hope,
    without end.... From each according to his ability, to each according
    to his need....
    "We're all one big family, they told us, we're all in this together.
    But you don't all stand working an acetylene torch ten hours a day -
    together, and you don;t all get a bellyache - together. What's whose
    ability and which of whose needs come first? When it's all in one pot,
    you can't let any man decide what his own needs are, can you? If you
    did, he might claim that he needs a yacht - and if his feelings is all
    you have to go by, he might prove it, too. Why not? If it's not right
    for me to own a car until I've worked myself into a hospital ward,
    earning a car for every loafer and every naked savage on earth - why
    can't he demand a yacht from me, too, if I still have the ability and
    have not collapsed? No? He can't? Then why can he demand that I go
    without cream for my coffee until he's replastered his living room?...
    Oh well... Well, anyway, it was decided that nobody had the right to
    judge his own need or ability. We *voted* on it. Yes ma'am, we voted
    on it in a public meeting twice a year. How else could it be done? Do
    you care to think what would happen at such a meeting? It took us just
    one meeting to discover that we had become beggars - rotten, whining,
    sniveling beggars, all of us, because no man could claim his pay as
    his rightful earning, he had no rights and no earnings, his work didn't
    belong to him, it belonged to 'the family,' and they owed him nothing
    in return, and the only claim he had on them was his 'need' - so he had
    to beg in piblic for relief from his needs, like any lousy moocher,
    listing all his troubles and miseries, down to his patched drawers and
    his wife's head colds, hoping that 'the family' would throw him the
    alms. He had to claim miseries, because its miseries, not work, that had
    become the coin of the realm - so it turned into a contest among six
    thousand panhandlers, each claiming that *his* need was worse than his
    brother's. How else could it be done? Do you care to guess what
    happened, what sort of men kept quiet, feeling shame, and what sort got
    away with the jackpot?

    "But that wasn't all. There was also something else that we discovered
    at the same meeting. The factory's production had fallen by forty per
    cent, in tht first half-year, so it was decided tht somebody hadn't
    delivered 'according to his ability.' Who? How would you tell it? 'The
    family' voted on that, too. They voted which men were the best, and
    these men were sentenced to work overtime each night for the next six
    months. Overtime without pay - because you weren't paid by time and you
    weren't paid by work, only by need.
    "Do I have to tell you what happened after that - and into what sort
    of creatures we all started turning, we who had once been human? We
    began to hide whatever ability we had, to slow down and watch like hawks
    that we never worked any faster or better than the next fellow. What else
    could we do, when we knew that if we did our best for 'the family,' it's
    not thanks or rewards that we'd get, but punishment? We knew that for
    every stinker who'd ruin a batch of motors and cost the company money -
    either through is sloppiness, because he didn't have to care, or through
    plain incompetence - it's we who'd have to pa with our nights and our
    Sundays. So we did our best to be no good.
    "Stupid Handspring."
  9. #149  
    Originally posted by Toby
    [B]That's not what I said. Assuming you will fail will lead to failure.[B]Again, assuming you will fail will lead to failure.[B]Have you ever met any of these people and spent any significant amount of time with them?Stop assuming that you will fail. "Lose yourself" in the pursuit.
    I think you interpreted his post differently then me...
    I read 'what if you fail' while you read it as 'I will fail'...

    I agree with you with the second attitude your rate of succes will be low...
    Personally I havent spend a lot of time with people who had to cope with failure over and over again.. But my wife (social worker)has, some of the stories are really sad and you wonder how those people even kept going for so long...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  10. #150  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    I think you interpreted his post differently then me...
    That seems obvious.
    I read 'what if you fail' while you read it as 'I will fail'...
    No. I read it as "what if I fail" as well. My point is that when people consider such things and mentally prepare themselves for a failure with a not optimal, but still acceptable consequence in failure, they don't try as hard to succeed.
    I agree with you with the second attitude your rate of succes will be low...
    You can't agree with me if you don't understand what I'm saying.
    Personally I havent spend a lot of time with people who had to cope with failure over and over again.. But my wife (social worker)has, some of the stories are really sad and you wonder how those people even kept going for so long...
    Umm...because they have a system of social workers supporting them?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #151  
    Originally posted by Toby
    No. I read it as "what if I fail" as well. My point is that when people consider such things and mentally prepare themselves for a failure with a not optimal, but still acceptable consequence in failure, they don't try as hard to succeed.
    IMHO you should take everything in consideration.. a gung ho attitude is no guarantee for success..
    I agree with you that motivation is key, but ignoring the negative is not realistic...
    Besides once you have failed once I think it is probably very hard to forget that... and IMHO it is a valuable experience where you can learn a lot from..
    You've got to keep a positive attitude and a willingness to succeed, but you also have to be realistic otherwise you are setting yourself up for a big dissapointment..


    Originally posted by Toby
    You can't agree with me if you don't understand what I'm saying.
    tsks tsk dont start patronizing me... I said if this is what you mean, then I agree... I did not say this is what you mean etc..

    Originally posted by Toby
    Umm...because they have a system of social workers supporting them?
    Actually a lot of them were too proud to ask for help and thats part of the reason they kept failing...
    Once somebody gave them a boost most of them could cope on their own again.. modern social work is very different that that of the past.. it is very goal focused...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  12. #152  
    I think this time thing ties in with her discussion about the state helping the less fortunate. One cannot mix up *willing* with being able to. I am willing to do volunteer work, but genuinely do not have the time. Time is finite, and there is only 24 hours in the day. Thus, you have to prioritize. A lot of poor people are *willing* to make themselves better but keep running into brick walls.


    Originally posted by Toby
    [B]I don't have time bursting out my orifices, but I manage to do something on occasion (in addition to whatever monetary contributions I make).I don't believe you. It's simply not possible that someone with a disadvantaged background like that could ever change their circumstances.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  13. #153  
    I would argue that Most people are not poor by choice. There will be a few that try very hard and succeed in making themselves better. However, the majority will fail. This is just the reality of the world we live in. Movies are made about and articles are written about people moving from rags to riches because it is a rarity, not the norm.


    Originally posted by Toby
    Thinking like that is the problem.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  14. #154  
    Againm your view of things are jaded. While I am all for trying again and again, the reality is that not everyone will "make it". In fact, as I argued earlier, most will not. A family making 20K a year will never get a quarter million mortgage from the bank -- now matter how much they try and fail.

    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Uh, simple...you try again

    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  15. #155  
    Well I am all for teaching people how to fix. I would not like my tax dollars being spent on someone that stays at home and watch soap opera every day. However, I do not mind my tax dollar being spent on someone who genuinely needs a helping hand. You are saying that everyone should be responsible for their own well being... This would mean no state welfare at all, and no support for citizens in dire straits.

    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    My contention is that there is welfare, but it's focus is totally out of whack. As was brought up earlier, we only give fish, we do not encourage fishing.

    The education and welfare systems are perfect examples of how throwing money at a problem rather than encouraging self-reliance and productivity are destroying motivation. (For both the producer and the lazy POS that wants to do nothing)



    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  16. #156  
    Did my circumstances change because of my efforts or was it just pure luck? If I was still in my home country, it is highly unlikely that I would be able to afford a computer or Treo. The odds are that I would still be going to bed hungry. While poor folks can move from a poor country to a rich country for a better life, poor folks that are already in rich countries have no where to go.

    Originally posted by Toby
    I don't believe you. It's simply not possible that someone with a disadvantaged background like that could ever change their circumstances.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  17. #157  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    [...] tsks tsk dont start patronizing me...
    I wasn't, so take your condescending tsk tsks and shove them.
    I said if this is what you mean, then I agree...
    No, you didn't. Re-read what you wrote. The only conditional if there was part of your statement.
    I did not say this is what you mean etc..
    AAMOF, you did. You said. "I read X, while you read Y. I agree that Y will have a low rate of success." Catch is, I never read Y. Tsk tsk.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #158  
    Originally posted by yardie
    I think this time thing ties in with her discussion about the state helping the less fortunate.
    People always seem to find time to do the things they want to do.
    One cannot mix up *willing* with being able to.
    And one cannot mix up willing with actually doing.
    I am willing to do volunteer work, but genuinely do not have the time.
    There are always things one can do if one really wants to help.
    Time is finite, and there is only 24 hours in the day.
    Yep.
    Thus, you have to prioritize.
    And obviously you don't consider actually doing something that high a priority. Not a problem.
    A lot of poor people are *willing* to make themselves better but keep running into brick walls.
    Then maybe they should turn around and try a different direction.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #159  
    Originally posted by yardie
    I would argue that Most people are not poor by choice.
    And I would argue that the state of being is irrelevant. One must look past that.
    There will be a few that try very hard and succeed in making themselves better. However, the majority will fail.
    Again, that jaded, cynical attitude is the problem.
    This is just the reality of the world we live in. Movies are made about and articles are written about people moving from rags to riches because it is a rarity, not the norm.
    Who cares about going from rags to riches? That's not what matters at all. Going from rags to normal clothes is quite doable for anyone that wants to work at it in the country I live in. YMMV.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #160  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Againm your view of things are jaded.
    Irony. I like it.
    While I am all for trying again and again, the reality is that not everyone will "make it". In fact, as I argued earlier, most will not. A family making 20K a year will never get a quarter million mortgage from the bank -- now matter how much they try and fail.
    Gee...why would a family making 20K be trying for a quarter million mortgage in the first place? No wonder you think they're doomed to fail. This hypothetical family is insane.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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