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  1. #121  
    Originally posted by yardie
    If you go back, you would see that Chlup was the one that used the example of the single crack mother... not me.
    Yes, I know, but that was the example which Mark was replying to. Calling 'extreme example' on only one of them seems rather odd.
    I do agree with his underlying arguements however. I bet there are more extreme cases to use (which he did) for his arguement that the same tired welfare family case used for MarkEagle's arguement.
    Sure there are more extreme cases. I'd still question their reality or actual distribution in reality. I'd be willing to bet that Mark's example is actually more common than clulup's (although neither of them is actually what I'd consider common).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #122  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Dude I get what you are saying. I just do not agree. It is obvious that are in a well off position. Had you been in Yorick's or another poor person's position, you would be arguing differently. [...]
    You sure? Some of the most anti-smoking people I've ever met are former smokers. And some of the most vociferous 'anti-laziness' people I've met are people who used to have nothing and busted their humps to get something.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #123  
    Originally posted by yardie
    A lot of the wealthy in America didn't produce anything to get wealthy. They inherit the money, scam investors or gamble on the stock market. I dont see any of these as being productive. In fact, it is closer to leeching.


    Perhaps the first two are not noble (indeed the second is horrible) but the third is. Why is funneling money toward productive ventures bad? By definition someone who made a killing the marketplace (absent insider trading, gaming the market, etc) has supported the very thing you say there isn't enough of: someone with little money turning it into a lot via hard work and innovation.
  4. #124  
    Toby,

    I was commenting on the voucher issue because I have heard people advocate such a system this side of the 49th parallel. If the public school system costs more than the private school sysrem, then something is amiss. Still, I am not convinced that vouchers is the way to improve things. Private school in Canada is very expensive.

    Well since you ask... I used to be a tutor. I firmly believe that knowledge is power and that people can use knowledge to better themselves. The time I spent posting on Treocentral is miniscule compare to the time it would take for me to do volunteer work again.

    I agree that I am no longer poor. Yes I have a Treo and yes I have several computers now. Still, it was not too long ago that I was going to bed hungry and school without lunch money.

    Originally posted by Toby
    [B]You obviously aren't familiar with the way things work in the context of the US education system. That's why you probably shouldn't comment on it. At the public school elementary level, the amount spent per student per year is around $3000 dollars locally. The private school elementary level tuition is $1600 per year. That's right. public school cost per student per year is higher than private school tuition.[B]That's what I figured.[B]When you did, what did you actually do (although I'm wondering how you find the time to post here in that case)?If you can afford a computer to post from and a Treo, you're not any kind of poor.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  5. #125  
    I agree with what you have to say especially with regards to the anti-smokers. Still, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Smoking is a choice, being poor for the most part is not.

    Originally posted by Toby
    You sure? Some of the most anti-smoking people I've ever met are former smokers. And some of the most vociferous 'anti-laziness' people I've met are people who used to have nothing and busted their humps to get something.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  6. #126  
    I am all for funnelling money into productive ventures (investing). I am also for government investment in the poor. The every man for himself philosophy that some folks are advocating would be a disaster for society.

    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Perhaps the first two are not noble (indeed the second is horrible) but the third is. Why is funneling money toward productive ventures bad? By definition someone who made a killing the marketplace (absent insider trading, gaming the market, etc) has supported the very thing you say there isn't enough of: someone with little money turning it into a lot via hard work and innovation.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  7. #127  
    Originally posted by Toby
    [B]None of us choose the conditions we grow up in. We all choose how we deal with them during the process of growing up, and after we've grown up.[B]You didn't? Why would you assume he's more or less likely not to make a contribution to society, then? What are you considering a contribution to society?[B]No. I think that the only handicaps we have are those we place upon ourselves.[B]In effect, what's the difference?[B]It would probably be more accurate to say for stuff you didn't realize you wrote.[B]I see no reason to even assume that such a kid wouldn't. After all, maybe his mother was neglected and abused as a child herself. How can you hold her responsible for her actions?[B]You are obviously not familiar with how the welfare system really works then.[B]Paying teachers well does not necessarily equate with good schools.What help? What trouble?
    It's simply wrong to say that we CHOSE how we deal with conditions/problems we encounter. The way we deal with them (what we actually do) is the product of our genetic background and the social and intellectual learning that takes place while we grow up (you may add god/the devil as influencers if you are a religious person).

    There is a HUGE difference between "Thinking someone is INFERIOR" and "Thinking someone is in a unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial CONDITION". If you really think the two are the same, that means you think everybody in an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition (when compared to your situation) is actually inferior to you in general. If I see someone in an unfavourable, inferior condition (when compared to my situation), I do not tend to think he is inferior to me.

    Judging from the way you describe your welfare system, it seems to work much less effectively and efficiently than ours. Our system is certainly not throwing money at people.
  8. #128  
    Originally posted by clulup
    It's simply wrong to say that we CHOSE how we deal with conditions/problems we encounter.
    How in the world is it wrong? Everyone has at least 2 choices: do something or do nothing. All journey's start with the first step.


    The way we deal with them (what we actually do) is the product of our genetic background and the social and intellectual learning that takes place while we grow up (you may add god/the devil as influencers if you are a religious person).
    Genetics? Are you serious? Is laziness a genetic disorder? It's a learned behavior IMHO. And as far as I know, you don't need a PhD to attempt to better yourself. Social issues might have some bearing, but it still comes down to personal choice (and effort). Have you ever heard the one about buying a man a fish vs. teaching him to fish? Entitlement programs of any kind are akin to buying the fish.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  9. #129  
    Originally posted by yardie
    The every man for himself philosophy that some folks are advocating would be a disaster for society.
    How so? It's worked here in the States for well over 200 years. Living in a free society, my options are limited only by my own ambition. If I were to become the next Bill Gates, why should I be forced to share that with anyone?

    If I don't take care of myself and family, who will? I can just imagine telling the bank that my mortgage won't be paid this month because I was too lazy to go to work and earn a living, so they should contact the government to cover it for me.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  10. #130  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Smoking is a choice, being poor for the most part is not.
    ...but not attempting to change it IS.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  11. #131  
    Originally posted by yardie (5/24/03)
    I still consider myself as poor. I am not as "dirt poor" as I used to be, but still poor.

    Originally posted by yardie (5/25/03)
    I agree that I am no longer poor.
    Wow... that was a quick turnaround!
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  12. #132  
    Your opinion, I disagree. Since it has never been done, why not try? The current philosophy certainly isn't cutting it.


    Originally posted by yardie
    The every man for himself philosophy that some folks are advocating would be a disaster for society.

    "Stupid Handspring."
  13. #133  
    Must have inherited it

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    Wow... that was a quick turnaround!
    "Stupid Handspring."
  14. #134  
    It seems you are making huge assumptions. I keep the lights on and I feed my family and I pay my portion of company provided insurance. I pay taxes, child support and give to a few charities. But, I also drive a 8 year old car, am struggling to pay off some debt and try to provide a decent vacation to my daughter one a year. I don't worship things. I realize time is the most valuable commodity.

    If I'm wealthy, it is because I realize what is important in life, it's not computers(blasphemous), status jewelry/cars/home/etc. , it is because I can wake up, look in the mirror and be proud of my efforts on a daily basis.



    Originally posted by yardie
    Dude I get what you are saying. I just do not agree. It is obvious that are in a well off position. Had you been in Yorick's or another poor person's position, you would be arguing differently.
    "Stupid Handspring."
  15. #135  
    But attempting to change does not mean that you will succeed. What if you try and you fail. Should society still leave you to rot?

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    ...but not attempting to change it IS.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  16. #136  
    Well I said I was poor yesterday because my family have to work very hard to make ends meet. We are above the so-called poverty line, so technically speaking I am not poor. I think there are different levels of poverty. Living from pay check to pay check is borderline poverty.

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    Wow... that was a quick turnaround!
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  17. #137  
    Well you are saying that it works. Mike STh is saying that we have never tried it. Which is it? I thought there was welfare in the U.S.


    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    How so? It's worked here in the States for well over 200 years. Living in a free society, my options are limited only by my own ambition. If I were to become the next Bill Gates, why should I be forced to share that with anyone?

    If I don't take care of myself and family, who will? I can just imagine telling the bank that my mortgage won't be paid this month because I was too lazy to go to work and earn a living, so they should contact the government to cover it for me.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  18. #138  
    Well if my memory serves me right, some of the revolutions in Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries were caused by the rich not caring about the poor. I think we all know what would happen if every man/woman was left to fend for himself/herself.

    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Your opinion, I disagree. Since it has never been done, why not try? The current philosophy certainly isn't cutting it.


    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  19. #139  
    Originally posted by yardie
    I was commenting on the voucher issue because I have heard people advocate such a system this side of the 49th parallel. If the public school system costs more than the private school sysrem, then something is amiss.
    Exactly the point. Something _is_ amiss. That was the point. In the US, 'have not' schools are generally not 'have not' because of lack of money. Vouchers give parents of children in such ineffective schools a way to choose something else.
    Still, I am not convinced that vouchers is the way to improve things. Private school in Canada is very expensive.
    Perhaps they're not right for Canada, but if things are that different, how can you say they're not right here? That's the frustrating thing about Canadians and Europeans thinking they know what we should do. They often aren't _really_ familiar with the examples about which they theorize. In some cases, such an outsider's perspective is valuable. In others, it's less than worthless.
    Well since you ask... I used to be a tutor. I firmly believe that knowledge is power and that people can use knowledge to better themselves. The time I spent posting on Treocentral is miniscule compare to the time it would take for me to do volunteer work again.
    Perhaps that sort of volunteer work, but there's undoubtedly something that one could do with any amount of time if they were willing. I don't have time bursting out my orifices, but I manage to do something on occasion (in addition to whatever monetary contributions I make).
    I agree that I am no longer poor. Yes I have a Treo and yes I have several computers now. Still, it was not too long ago that I was going to bed hungry and school without lunch money.
    I don't believe you. It's simply not possible that someone with a disadvantaged background like that could ever change their circumstances.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #140  
    Originally posted by clulup
    It's simply wrong to say that we CHOSE how we deal with conditions/problems we encounter. [...]
    If you wish to believe that you're a robot, that's your prerogative. I will choose the path that's clear. I will choose free will.
    The way we deal with them (what we actually do) is the product of our genetic background and the social and intellectual learning that takes place while we grow up (you may add god/the devil as influencers if you are a religious person).
    Oh please. That's what the guilty elitists tell themselves so they can believe they're just like the 'downtrodden' deep inside, and one day the world will be a utopia where everyone is 'equal'...if only the right people are in charge (people who think exactly like themselves, obviously).
    There is a HUGE difference between "Thinking someone is INFERIOR" and "Thinking someone is in a unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial CONDITION". If you really think the two are the same, that means you think everybody in an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition (when compared to your situation) is actually inferior to you in general.
    I guess it's a good thing I don't think about people as being in inferior conditions then.
    If I see someone in an unfavourable, inferior condition (when compared to my situation), I do not tend to think he is inferior to me.
    Irrelevant. Again, what do you know about the person or his situation? Is there really a person anyway? You haven't established this mythical person in the first place. Such examples are usually just used to shame people into agreeing with someone's position. It won't work with me.
    Judging from the way you describe your welfare system, it seems to work much less effectively and efficiently than ours. Our system is certainly not throwing money at people.
    I'm sure proponents of ours would claim it wasn't either. They rarely deal directly with people in the system either, though.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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