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  1. #101  
    OK. So are you saying that we should leave the suffering to suffer, leave the hungry to starve and leave the sick to die?

    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Why do you go to such great lengths to offer excuses for such people?

    If you continue to place excuses on the table before accountability or performance, then many will take the path you are steering them toward. You actually encourage them to continue the cycle. It's not a favor to them.


    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  2. #102  
    True. But how many people fall into that category (being born into a 3rd+ generation welfare family)? I think you are looking at an extreme case for justification of your position.

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    Define "disadvantaged", "dignity", and "adequate"? I'm sure your definitions will be different from mine. There's a BIG difference between a child born to a crack addicted mother, and a child born into a 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation welfare family.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  3. #103  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Come on now. The poor will end up in the have not schools.
    I know you'd like to think that, but with the vouchers, they'll have the same money to spend on education as the middle class. The have not schools will _be_ not schools.

    Just curious, how much have all of you people who show so much concern for the 'have nots' personally _done_ lately for them? Not how much tax you think you paid, or how much you claim you care. What's the last thing you _did_? This issue reminds me of the weather.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #104  
    Originally posted by yardie
    True. But how many people fall into that category (being born into a 3rd+ generation welfare family)? I think you are looking at an extreme case for justification of your position.
    Gee...and an example of a single crack mother isn't an extreme case for the justification of a position? How many have _you_ met personally?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #105  
    In a perfect world this would be true. But we do not live in a perfect world.


    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    Must be one of them liberals...

    I've always believed that anything is possible as long as you're willing to work for it. You may never get there, but you'll never know if you don't try. Has anyone ever tried to teach a child to ride a bike? "Daddy, I'll never be able to do it without training wheels!". Well, when's the last time anyone saw an adult riding a bike with them?
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  6. #106  
    Originally posted by yardie
    In a perfect world this would be true. But we do not live in a perfect world.
    You didn't read his whole post, did you? It fully acknowledges that it isn't a perfect world: "you may never get there...".
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #107  
    Well this is what's going to happen. I am Middle Class earner and can afford 4,000 per year for tuition. But alas this is not enough for me to send my child to the school that I want which costs 8000 per year. The goverment is giving 4000 voucers -- voila I can now send my child to the 8K/year school instead of the half-decent for wich I pay 4K/yr. Unless the vouchers will only be for the lower classes, the Middle and upper classes will still have more money to spend on education.

    I personally have not done anything recently for the poor other than donating money. I do not have the time to volunteer like I used to. This being said, I still consider myself as poor. I am not as "dirt poor" as I used to be, but still poor.

    Originally posted by Toby
    I know you'd like to think that, but with the vouchers, they'll have the same money to spend on education as the middle class. The have not schools will _be_ not schools.

    Just curious, how much have all of you people who show so much concern for the 'have nots' personally _done_ lately for them? Not how much tax you think you paid, or how much you claim you care. What's the last thing you _did_? This issue reminds me of the weather.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  8. #108  
    If you go back, you would see that Chlup was the one that used the example of the single crack mother... not me.

    I do agree with his underlying arguements however. I bet there are more extreme cases to use (which he did) for his arguement that the same tired welfare family case used for MarkEagle's arguement.

    Originally posted by Toby

    Gee...and an example of a single crack mother isn't an extreme case for the justification of a position? How many have _you_ met personally?
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  9. #109  
    Originally posted by yardie
    In a perfect world this would be true. But we do not live in a perfect world.
    No, we don't live in a perfect world, but based on what you're saying, you feel it can't be done at all? Do you really think nobody born into poverty ever made it out?

    In a free society, anybody can better themselves, and many do without any governmental intervention. Not everyone needs hand-outs.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  10. #110  
    Originally posted by yardie
    I am Middle Class earner...

    ...I still consider myself as poor.
    While a Middle Class earner may feel poor, I don't think by definition they can be.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  11. #111  
    Mark,

    It does happen. But it does not happen often enough for me to believe that everyone who is poor can become well off.

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    No, we don't live in a perfect world, but based on what you're saying, you feel it can't be done at all? Do you really think nobody born into poverty ever made it out?

    In a free society, anybody can better themselves, and many do without any governmental intervention. Not everyone needs hand-outs.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  12. #112  
    Mark,

    I think you misunderstood my post. I was just giving an hypothetical example of why the voucher system will not solve any problems. I do not have a child for the record.

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    While a Middle Class earner may feel poor, I don't think by definition they can be.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  13. #113  
    Geeze Yardie, with "The Brain" as your avitar, I'd think it would be easier

    I was very careful in my previous posts to differentiate between those that were born with money and those that acquired it through their own efforts. Though I have less respect for those that inherited their wealth, the point in their favor is that it was their benefactors choice not a government mandate to redistribute individual wealth. Furthermore, if they are able to increase their holdings, that is usually good for the economy and that affects each of us positively. Realize that an extremely small portion of the truly wealthy do nothing with their money. It is usually invested, seeding ventures or providing capitol for other ventures. Again, this benefits us all. I'm not wealthy, though I respect those that are. Guess I'm termed upper-middle class.
    The one exception I would take to what you said is that everyone can better their situation, if they are willing to work for it. I'm certainly not saying that they will be millionaires, but they can better their situation if they chose.

    Originally posted by yardie
    Again you are talking as if everyone who is wealthy worked hard for it. You think President Bush's daughter was admitted to Yale because she is really smart? How many of America's poor will ever get admitted into Yale? What do you think will happen when daughter Bush leaves Yale? She will probably end up on some boards or the executive of some company making tonnes of cash. It is naive to think that everyone has the same chance of becoming wealthy.

    Last edited by MIKE STH; 05/24/2003 at 10:00 PM.
    "Stupid Handspring."
  14. #114  
    Allow me to submit that we have a severe shortage of people with any form of drive and ambition. This country is becoming overrun with people who truly believe that things are owed them simply by their existence. My greatest fear is that segment is growing.


    Originally posted by yardie
    Mark,

    It does happen. But it does not happen often enough for me to believe that everyone who is poor can become well off.

    "Stupid Handspring."
  15. #115  
    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Allow me to submit that we have a severe shortage of people with any form of drive and ambition. This country is becoming overrun with people who truly believe that things are owed them simply by their existence. My greatest fear is that segment is growing.
    yaes. Slackers with entitlement issues. I know several of those. I sometimes fear I'm becoming one.
  16. #116  
    Originally posted by Yorick
    I sometimes fear I'm becoming one.
    What are you fearful of?
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  17. #117  
    Dude I get what you are saying. I just do not agree. It is obvious that are in a well off position. Had you been in Yorick's or another poor person's position, you would be arguing differently.

    In an ideal environment, everyone can make themselves better. But not everyone lives in an ideal environment. It is highly unlikely that I would be here debating you guys now if I was living in the same country and environment that I was living in before. Anyhow, I have met a lot of people over the years that feel as if they had hit a brick wall. It is people like these that needs help. I have no sympathy for the 20 something on the street begging. I think these folks have a better choice. A part time job at Mickey D's is one of them. The people I have sympathy for are those that really need help... those who are trying their best to make their lives better and keep hitting walls.


    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Geeze Yardie, with "The Brain" as your avitar, I'd think it would be easier

    The one exception I would take to what you said is that everyone can better their situation, if they are willing to work for it. I'm certainly not saying that they will be millionaires, but they can better their situation if they chose.

    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  18. #118  
    Why would you think this? You got any proof that this is really happening? Do you really think that most of those being helped are proud of what is happening? I don't. I know a number of people that used to be on welfare..not because they wanted to, but because they had to. They all were very happy when they were in a position where they do longer need to depend on the state for their livelihood.

    Originally posted by MIKE STH
    Allow me to submit that we have a severe shortage of people with any form of drive and ambition. This country is becoming overrun with people who truly believe that things are owed them simply by their existence. My greatest fear is that segment is growing.


    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  19. #119  
    Allow me to submit that he is afraid of becoming what Mike STH called a "leecher".

    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    What are you fearful of?
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  20. #120  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Well this is what's going to happen. I am Middle Class earner and can afford 4,000 per year for tuition. But alas this is not enough for me to send my child to the school that I want which costs 8000 per year. The goverment is giving 4000 voucers -- voila I can now send my child to the 8K/year school instead of the half-decent for wich I pay 4K/yr. Unless the vouchers will only be for the lower classes, the Middle and upper classes will still have more money to spend on education.
    You obviously aren't familiar with the way things work in the context of the US education system. That's why you probably shouldn't comment on it. At the public school elementary level, the amount spent per student per year is around $3000 dollars locally. The private school elementary level tuition is $1600 per year. That's right. public school cost per student per year is higher than private school tuition.
    I personally have not done anything recently for the poor other than donating money.
    That's what I figured.
    I do not have the time to volunteer like I used to.
    When you did, what did you actually do (although I'm wondering how you find the time to post here in that case)?
    This being said, I still consider myself as poor. I am not as "dirt poor" as I used to be, but still poor.
    If you can afford a computer to post from and a Treo, you're not any kind of poor.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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