View Poll Results: Will they find WMD in Iraq

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, left there by the Saddam gov.

    12 42.86%
  • Yes, 'planted' by US gov.

    4 14.29%
  • No

    8 28.57%
  • Don't know/ not sure

    4 14.29%
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  1. #41  
    I guess when you have a couple thousand soldiers (compared witj hundreds of thousands from the U.S) from 3 other opportunisitic countries it is not unilateral anymore... But everyone knows who was really calling the shot.

    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Hold on now, just because everyone wasn't on board does not make it unilateral. Have we forgotten word roots' meanings?

    Unilateral: done or undertaken by one person or party
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  2. #42  
    Let me guess: You are trying to rack up your post count.. Or maybe because Toby ain't around to scare you away hehe.

    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Muahahaha, joke's on you! That implies half of everyone agreed. Hardly! Frankly, I could care less. I don't know why I felt like being a jerk and belaboring this point.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  3. #43  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    Well, some people were paranoid about Reagan too. You might remember the Berlin wall falling. Lots of East Europeans are enjoying freedom now because of his actions. Just like the Iraqi people will get to chart their own paths now.
    Its a matter of time before Iraq turn into another dictatorship..or worse.. an Islamic Republic.



    I can't agree with the comment about "keeping the gap ... smaller" as that's too socialistic for my blood. , but it is interesting to note that Grand Cayman (my Dad's family is one of the four "founding" families) has a much lower crime rate than Jamaica does. Knowing a bit of the history of both I've felt that since everybody (in the Caymans) used to be about the same financially, and then were all able to take equal advantage of the money when it started becoming available (from real estate, tourism, banking jobs etc.) instead of having a history of landed gentry (like Jamaica does) helped to keep that gap from ever occurring.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think it helps that the Cayman Islands are still a British colony. Jamaica got its independence more than 40 years ago. I am not aware of any existing British colony that is not well off and low in crime.

    As far as I am concerned, the U.S. should be spending more on its people. I remember the first time I visited NYC... I was shocked to see what I discovered. Definitely not the images that they portray on TV. There are parts of the city that looks like it belongs in a third world country. Why is this?
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  4. #44  
    I seem to recalling reading a few years back that the majority of Caymanians are actually Jamaicans, but that the Jamaicans for the most part have no status (no citizenship etc.).


    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    I forgot to mention another reason that I think there isn't a great big disparity in incomes in Cayman. Most of the people are very closely related to each other (and can very quickly determine how closely) and look out for each other. I don't know if that kind of social awareness could be duplicated in a country bigger than Cayman.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  5. #45  
    Originally posted by clulup


    Don't start being silly.

    ....

    Calling me a paranoid racist is a very, very, very stupid statement since there is not a single racist remark in any of my postings. I guess it tells us more about yourself than about me.
    I knew it was stupid. I was being sarcastic, I just didn't know which "smily" I was supposed to use. I took umbrage at you request that I "just accept" your assertation and was trying to make a point about what you had said.
    As for your remarks about Israel, have you ever considered that the Israelis are acting exactly the way any nation would that is being mercilessly persecuted by everyone of their neighbors? It's unfortunate for the Palestinians caught in the middle, but the rest of the Arab world has been using them quite horribly to achieve their own ends. They make quite convenient symbols of how bad the Israelis are to "innocents".
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  6.    #46  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    I knew it was stupid. I was being sarcastic, I just didn't know which "smily" I was supposed to use. I took umbrage at you request that I "just accept" your assertation and was trying to make a point about what you had said.
    As for your remarks about Israel, have you ever considered that the Israelis are acting exactly the way any nation would that is being mercilessly persecuted by everyone of their neighbors? It's unfortunate for the Palestinians caught in the middle, but the rest of the Arab world has been using them quite horribly to achieve their own ends. They make quite convenient symbols of how bad the Israelis are to "innocents".
    While some of their actions are 'understandable' doesnt mean they are the right thing...
    Revenge is a very natural thing to want to act on, however it is not the right thing...

    Israel has a tough environment, no discussion on that, however they way they handle it is beyond reasonable.
    I'm not saying the suicide bombers are reasonable either, both parties are at fault here... but for some reason there is some kind of stigma about critisizing Isreal.

    Isreal went outside the borders set by the UN, which makes them an invading force. UN resolutions have been created against them about the and other things.
    Human right issues are plenty in the occupied territories, some of the Israeli soldiers basically act the same way the Nazi's did in occupied Europe in WWII. This irony makes it harder for me to understand their minds, it sounds very contradicting to me...
    Current Israeli politicians seem to be revange driven hardliners, not sollution minded...
    This leads into an escalating statis quo where you'll get more suicide bombers and more abuse of powers by Israeli military
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  7. #47  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    I knew it was stupid. I was being sarcastic, I just didn't know which "smily" I was supposed to use. I took umbrage at you request that I "just accept" your assertation and was trying to make a point about what you had said.
    As for your remarks about Israel, have you ever considered that the Israelis are acting exactly the way any nation would that is being mercilessly persecuted by everyone of their neighbors? It's unfortunate for the Palestinians caught in the middle, but the rest of the Arab world has been using them quite horribly to achieve their own ends. They make quite convenient symbols of how bad the Israelis are to "innocents".
    So suddenly you cannot handle smilies any more? Oh well....

    Regarding Israel, you seem to have lost track of the developments of the last years. Israel is not "mercilessly persecuted" by the governments of Egypt, Jordania and Lebanon, to start off with, and also Syria would never consider invading Israel. Israel certainly has nothing to fear from other countries due to US protection, not to mention their WMD they would not hesitate to use as a last means. That major parts of the population in surrounding counties are against Israeli politics is not really surpising, given how the Palestinians are treated in Israel and the occupied territories.

    Since the killing of Rabin by one of his compatriots, Netanyahu, Sharon and the like made a very bad job in leading their country. Israel has been doing the best it could to **** up the situation even more, instead of building on it's strong position. I'm afraid, the situation will not be easy to solve, given the high number of extremely racist and fundamentalist people in the Israeli parliament, and also the population. I have to say I am still shocked by the degree of racism found in some parties/movements there. Of course one could ask who started the whole thing, but that's a difficult question, too. The fact that jews have been treated horribly in the past can certainly not serve as an excuse for treating others horribly now and for taking the land of others by force.
  8. #48  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    While some of their actions are 'understandable' doesnt mean they are the right thing...
    Revenge is a very natural thing to want to act on, however it is not the right thing...

    Israel has a tough environment, no discussion on that, however they way they handle it is beyond reasonable.
    I'm not saying the suicide bombers are reasonable either, both parties are at fault here... but for some reason there is some kind of stigma about critisizing Isreal.

    Isreal went outside the borders set by the UN, which makes them an invading force. UN resolutions have been created against them about the and other things.
    Human right issues are plenty in the occupied territories, some of the Israeli soldiers basically act the same way the Nazi's did in occupied Europe in WWII. This irony makes it harder for me to understand their minds, it sounds very contradicting to me...
    Current Israeli politicians seem to be revange driven hardliners, not sollution minded...
    This leads into an escalating statis quo where you'll get more suicide bombers and more abuse of powers by Israeli military
    I can see your point, but I think that you're missing the point. Israel is the only nation in the world that has been constantly attacked by all it's neighbors, from it's inception to now. The rest of the Arab world could care less about the Palenstinians, they purposely have pushed the Palestinians away from any kind of deal with the Israelis because they don't want to see any Arab nation at peace with Israel. They fund the Palestinian extremists, not because they think they stand a chance, but because as long as they do so there cannot be peace.
    Terrorism has never led to a peace agreement.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by clulup


    So suddenly you cannot handle smilies any more? Oh well....
    No, I just don't think looks sarcastic to me.

    Originally posted by clulup

    Regarding Israel, you seem to have lost track of the developments of the last years. Israel is not "mercilessly persecuted" by the governments of Egypt, Jordania and Lebanon, to start off with, and also Syria would never consider invading Israel. Israel certainly has nothing to fear from other countries due to US protection, not to mention their WMD they would not hesitate to use as a last means. That major parts of the population in surrounding counties are against Israeli politics is not really surpising, given how the Palestinians are treated in Israel and the occupied territories.
    Actually, I've been following "developments" in Israel for quite some time. Forgive me if I come to different conclusions than you. Yes it is (MP by etc.). They fund (with their oil money) Terrorist extremists that train children how to blow themselves up. They gave up on direct confrontation because all they got was their behinds tanned (if they thought that they could succeed, they would try again). As I recall the USA has never had to send one fighter plane or even one soldier to help them during a fight. Their military does quite nicely by themselves. As to how the Palestinians are treated, you can thank Arafat for that.

    Originally posted by clulup
    Since the killing of Rabin by one of his compatriots, Netanyahu, Sharon and the like made a very bad job in leading their country. Israel has been doing the best it could to **** up the situation even more, instead of building on it's strong position. I'm afraid, the situation will not be easy to solve, given the high number of extremely racist and fundamentalist people in the Israeli parliament, and also the population. I have to say I am still shocked by the degree of racism found in some parties/movements there. Of course one could ask who started the whole thing, but that's a difficult question, too. The fact that jews have been treated horribly in the past can certainly not serve as an excuse for treating others horribly now and for taking the land of others by force.
    ??? If you think that the Israelis are being mean (treating them horribly and taking their land by force) towards Palestinians because others "have been treated horribly in the past" you're the one that needs to watch the news more closely. Every single time the Israelis have seized land it's been because they were attacked. Every single time.

    Try this for a different view on the facts - historynutshell/conflict
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  10.    #50  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    ??? If you think that the Israelis are being mean (treating them horribly and taking their land by force) towards Palestinians because others "have been treated horribly in the past" you're the one that needs to watch the news more closely. Every single time the Israelis have seized land it's been because they were attacked. Every single time.

    Try this for a different view on the facts - historynutshell/conflict
    so they take land after they get attacked, and your point is? if somebody hits you it is ok to steal his car?
    I don't see the logic.
    I can see they charge the person, attack him, capture or kill him and go back. Capturing his families and neighbours land is not a sollution IMHO it just creates more anger and does not lead to a peacefull sollution..

    And to return to you previos reply, yes Israel is probably in one of the toughest positions you can immagine, however that does not justify the way they handle it.. same as that the way its neighbours fund terrorism is evil.
    All I'm saying both parties are in the wrong...
    But somehow israel seems to be a holy cow who cannot be critisized...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT (in response to BobbyMike)

    so they take land after they get attacked, and your point is? if somebody hits you it is ok to steal his car?
    I don't see the logic.
    I can see they charge the person, attack him, capture or kill him and go back. Capturing his families and neighbours land is not a sollution IMHO it just creates more anger and does not lead to a peacefull sollution..

    And to return to you previos reply, yes Israel is probably in one of the toughest positions you can immagine, however that does not justify the way they handle it.. same as that the way its neighbours fund terrorism is evil.
    All I'm saying both parties are in the wrong...
    But somehow israel seems to be a holy cow who cannot be critisized...
    I agree with that very much.

    And I find it interesting that no one objected to "the high number of extremely racist and fundamentalist people in the Israeli parliament, and also the population". So what we have is a country in possession of WMD, with a very strong army and an ever growing fundamentalist and extremist part of the population, a country known for taking other territories by force (ok, sometimes in selfdefence...) and violating UN resolutions. If this country was my neighbor, maybe I wouldn't like the situation too much either...
  12.    #52  
    somebody send me this link: http://www.workingforchange.com/arti...TOKEN=78869244

    IMHO it holds some good points..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  13. #53  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    so they take land after they get attacked, and your point is? if somebody hits you it is ok to steal his car?
    I don't see the logic.
    I can see they charge the person, attack him, capture or kill him and go back. Capturing his families and neighbours land is not a sollution IMHO it just creates more anger and does not lead to a peacefull sollution..

    And to return to you previos reply, yes Israel is probably in one of the toughest positions you can immagine, however that does not justify the way they handle it.. same as that the way its neighbours fund terrorism is evil.
    All I'm saying both parties are in the wrong...
    But somehow israel seems to be a holy cow who cannot be critisized...
    Actually if your country attacks my country it is legal and expected for my country to attack back and take territory if it can. It's been happening for millenia.

    The Palestinians have land on the West Bank because the Israelis gave it to them. The Israelis originally took the land from Jordan, not from the Palestinian refugees who fled in 1947-49 from what we now view as Israel.

    Israel can and should be criticized, but in all fairness it should be acknowledged that the Israelis never had a problem with muslims/arabs living amongst them until they were attacked (with the intent of destroying their nation). They quite rightly fear now. The Palestinian "Problem" is one that has been manufactured by Arabs who abhor the thought of an Israeli state. Every time the Palestinians and the Israelis get close to an agreement radical extremists kill someone.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  14.    #54  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    Actually if your country attacks my country it is legal and expected for my country to attack back and take territory if it can. It's been happening for millenia. .
    Racism has been happening for millenia too.. that doesn't make it ok... your argument is very poor IMHO..

    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    The Palestinians have land on the West Bank because the Israelis gave it to them. The Israelis originally took the land from Jordan, not from the Palestinian refugees who fled in 1947-49 from what we now view as Israel..
    very true..

    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Israel can and should be criticized, but in all fairness it should be acknowledged that the Israelis never had a problem with muslims/arabs living amongst them until they were attacked (with the intent of destroying their nation). They quite rightly fear now. The Palestinian "Problem" is one that has been manufactured by Arabs who abhor the thought of an Israeli state. Every time the Palestinians and the Israelis get close to an agreement radical extremists kill someone.
    I agree the arabs were the initial agressors. However Israel went too far in its reaction. I can understand their fear and anger, but acting this way doesnt make the middle east a better place...

    IMHO Israel should return the occupied territories and return to its original size. In the same time the Arab leaders should stop funding suicide bombers. For all I care Israel can build a giant 'Berlin Wall' around the country if they feel that would make them feel saver...
    Both parties have to give in.. without that happening I dont see the situation improving..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  15. #55  
    Originally posted by clulup


    I agree with that very much.

    And I find it interesting that no one objected to "the high number of extremely racist and fundamentalist people in the Israeli parliament, and also the population". So what we have is a country in possession of WMD, with a very strong army and an ever growing fundamentalist and extremist part of the population, a country known for taking other territories by force (ok, sometimes in selfdefence...) and violating UN resolutions. If this country was my neighbor, maybe I wouldn't like the situation too much either...
    I did object, but since it was just an opinion without any hard facts, I didn't feel the need to remark until you revisted the comment.
    As to the rest of what you say, since this whole pile of a mess started when the countries of Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt refused to accept the UN sanctioned partition (to fufill the Balfour Declaration of 1917) of Western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state and Israel was forced to defend itself from 4 larger countries (and Lebanon) by itself. Since from that time (56 years) before mentioned country has developed into a viable and thriving nation that produces substance on the world market and has never given anyone serious threat that they would use those WMD in any way but in self-defense and has a working democratic society that holds free elections (and I might add more liberal immigration laws than most EU countries), if you were Syria, Lebanon (Syria South), Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or any other repressive government in the area, you should be nervous. Especially if you had announced publically that your number one goal wasn't providing adequate education, housing, or food for your own people - but the utter destruction of your only non-muslim neighbor.

    And then again, maybe that's why Canada has been making noises
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  16. #56  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    I did object, but since it was just an opinion without any hard facts, I didn't feel the need to remark until you revisted the comment.
    As to the rest of what you say, since this whole pile of a mess started when the countries of Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt refused to accept the UN sanctioned partition (to fufill the Balfour Declaration of 1917) of Western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state and Israel was forced to defend itself from 4 larger countries (and Lebanon) by itself. Since from that time (56 years) before mentioned country has developed into a viable and thriving nation that produces substance on the world market and has never given anyone serious threat that they would use those WMD in any way but in self-defense and has a working democratic society that holds free elections (and I might add more liberal immigration laws than most EU countries), if you were Syria, Lebanon (Syria South), Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or any other repressive government in the area, you should be nervous. Especially if you had announced publically that your number one goal wasn't providing adequate education, housing, or food for your own people - but the utter destruction of your only non-muslim neighbor.

    And then again, maybe that's why Canada has been making noises
    As I mentioned before: what has happened in the past (like from 1917 to 1997 or so) speaks for Israel. But things are different now, and the way Israel behaves right now costs them an enormous amout of support. This is both stupid and counterproductive. Or would you say the people in Israel (and in the occupied territories) live a better life since Sharon ended the peace process and takes care of things?
  17. #57  
    Originally posted by clulup


    As I mentioned before: what has happened in the past (like from 1917 to 1997 or so) speaks for Israel. But things are different now, and the way Israel behaves right now costs them an enormous amout of support. This is both stupid and counterproductive. Or would you say the people in Israel (and in the occupied territories) live a better life since Sharon ended the peace process and takes care of things?
    What's different now? Have the extremist groups all said "we're going to stop killing Israeli civilians"? Have the suicide bombimgs stopped?

    Your point about Israel losing support in some corners is right, but do they need the support from people who would side with terrorists?
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  18.    #58  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    What's different now? Have the extremist groups all said "we're going to stop killing Israeli civilians"? Have the suicide bombimgs stopped?

    Your point about Israel losing support in some corners is right, but do they need the support from people who would side with terrorists?
    Trouble is if both parties keep this attitude, nothing is going to change :/
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  19. #59  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    What's different now? Have the extremist groups all said "we're going to stop killing Israeli civilians"? Have the suicide bombimgs stopped?

    Your point about Israel losing support in some corners is right, but do they need the support from people who would side with terrorists?
    No, the suicide bombings have not stopped, in fact they got much worse since Sharon ended the peace process. Suicide bombings need a certain type of climate to happen: lack of hope, the feeling of being cornered, oppression, for instance. That's precisely what Israel is doing with the Palestinians. So once again, what do you expect from people being treated like the Palestinians in the occupied territories?

    No, Israel does not need support from people who side with terrorists. Did anybody claim it does? Or are you insinuating that people who stop supporting Israel side with terrorists?

    Do you find destroying houses belonging to the relatives of suicide bombers (relatives who had nothing to do with the suicide attack) an acceptable and useful policy? Do you rule out that Israel is using terror against Palestinians? Are they not terrorists only because the have an army with helicopters and tanks, and don't use suicide bombers?
  20. #60  
    Originally posted by clulup

    No, the suicide bombings have not stopped, in fact they got much worse since Sharon ended the peace process. Suicide bombings need a certain type of climate to happen: lack of hope, the feeling of being cornered, oppression, for instance. That's precisely what Israel is doing with the Palestinians. So once again, what do you expect from people being treated like the Palestinians in the occupied territories?
    The Israelis never "cornered" the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been used by the rest of the Arab world as pawns in a war they couldn't win by conventional means. They have incited the Palestinians to act stupidly (suicide bombers will never win peace) which in turn results in predictable ways by the Israelis. And it goes on and on.
    Yopu also left out one important piece (without this one it never happens) of the suicide bomber climate - a respected religious leader who urges his own people to kill themselves, and promises them a place in heaven after they succeed.
    Originally posted by clulup
    No, Israel does not need support from people who side with terrorists. Did anybody claim it does? Or are you insinuating that people who stop supporting Israel side with terrorists?
    No, I'm stating that some countries (Russia comes to mind) have sided with the Arabs against Israel and do quite a good business amongst this madness. Some people also have a tendency to demonize the Israelis and unfairly blame the whole mess on them. Left to themselves I feel the Israelis and the Palestinians (minus the radicals on each side) could, and possibly will, work this out.

    Originally posted by clulup
    Do you find destroying houses belonging to the relatives of suicide bombers (relatives who had nothing to do with the suicide attack) an acceptable and useful policy? Do you rule out that Israel is using terror against Palestinians? Are they not terrorists only because the have an army with helicopters and tanks, and don't use suicide bombers?
    Terrorist generally don't do things in retaliation, but by definition do things to terrorize another group of people to (supposedly) achieve some goals. Anybody can call anyone a terrorist if they feel that the definition is met. You, or anyone, could call the Israelis terrorists if you wanted. I wouldn't agree, but that's fine. Life would be boring if everyone agreed.

    And by the way, how do you know that the relatives "didn't have anything to do with the suicide attack"? Can you actually say for certain what causes one person to strap a bomb on themselves, and not another?

    As to the destruction of houses. I can't say that I would have come up with that choice if I was in their shoes. I like it better than blowing up a busy marketplace or a busload of schoolkids though. Houses can be rebuilt. Lives cannot be replaced.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
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