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  1.    #1  
    Holy Cow. A "smoking gun" it was not, but aluminum tubes made to specifications surpassing all non-nuclear use, audio tapes of Iraqis discussion hiding "modified" vehicles ahead of inspectors and a tape of a commander telling a subordinate to remove the word "nerve agents" (or something like that) from wireless communications.
  2. #2  
    missed his speech - did it go like this
  3. #3  
    lost the attachment when I previewed

    trying again
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  4. cml
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    #4  
    it's the plain and honest truth...

    there was a picture in the newspaper a few weeks ago of protesters holding signs that said 'War With Iraq = OIL' up on Killington (a pretty big ski resort 20 min. from me) as all of the big SUV's drove by.

    - cml
  5. #5  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    A "smoking gun" it was not...
    I caught Bob Woodward on Larry king last night. He said one of his assistants put it this way: "While not a 'smoking gun', there's a lot of shell casings on the floor..."
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
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  6.    #6  
    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    I caught Bob Woodward on Larry king last night. He said one of his assistants put it this way: "While not a 'smoking gun', there's a lot of shell casings on the floor..."
    Yeah. I must admit my stomach dropped to my feet when I heard the part about removing "nerve agents" from wireless communications.
  7. #7  
    Why is that? Wasn't it America who helped them create these nerve agents? Didn't they implicitly encouraged them to use them against Iran when Iraq was seen as their friends?

    There was no smoking gun. The only shell on the floor are egg shells.


    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Yeah. I must admit my stomach dropped to my feet when I heard the part about removing "nerve agents" from wireless communications.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  8.    #8  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Why is that? Wasn't it America who helped them create these nerve agents? Didn't they implicitly encouraged them to use them against Iran when Iraq was seen as their friends?
    Why did my stomach drop to the floor? The notion that there is a hostile regime out there with chemical weapons and we may be attacking them--is that not enough to make you feel uneasy? You sir have a stronger stomach than I.
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer

    Why did my stomach drop to the floor? The notion that there is a hostile regime out there with chemical weapons and we may be attacking them--is that not enough to make you feel uneasy? You sir have a stronger stomach than I.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    The notion that there is a hostile regime out there with chemical
    Funny you say that.. US is threatening to attack iraq and hence a hostile regime... US has chemical weapons too...
    Isnt that the pot calling the kettle black??

    IMHO Nobody should have nukes/chemical/biological weapons.. those weapons are too horrific to think about...
    The fact that Iraq has them by means given by the US says enought... the fact al quaida was originally trained by the CIA ditto..

    The US should let the UN do the job it is created for, not play police officer themselfs and escalate the whole situation and the very fragile balance in the world....

    The agressiveness of the Bush administration is just as scary as the Saddam administration...
    2 wrongs still dont make a right...


    /me starts looking for cover...
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  11.    #11  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    Funny you say that.. US is threatening to attack iraq and hence a hostile regime... US has chemical weapons too...
    Isnt that the pot calling the kettle black??
    You can honestly say the US is equivalent to Iraq? I don't know what to say.

    The US should let the UN do the job it is created for, not play police officer themselfs and escalate the whole situation and the very fragile balance in the world....
    The UN has shown no resolve in backing up what they themselves have said. I honestly hold no strong opinions about this possible action, but for the UN to demand full disclosure and then do nothing when they are ignored does not bode well for the future.

    The agressiveness of the Bush administration is just as scary as the Saddam administration...
    2 wrongs still dont make a right...
    Again, you cannot seriously tell me you think the US gov't is the same as the Iraqi one.
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    You can honestly say the US is equivalent to Iraq? I don't know what to say.
    I'm not saying they are equivalent, far from that. However the fact that the US threatens to attack another country makes it a hostile regime...

    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    [B]
    The UN has shown no resolve in backing up what they themselves have said. I honestly hold no strong opinions about this possible action, but for the UN to demand full disclosure and then do nothing when they are ignored does not bode well for the future.
    So if you get burgled, the police dont act fast enough in your opinion it is ok for you to burgle the place of the thief???

    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    [B]Again, you cannot seriously tell me you think the US gov't is the same as the Iraqi one.
    Again I'm not saying they are the same, however they have similarities... Warmungering the most important one...

    again: 2 wrongs still dont make a right...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  13.    #13  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    So if you get burgled, the police dont act fast enough in your opinion it is ok for you to burgle the place of the thief???
    If the gov't passes a law against burglary and then chooses not to follow through on it for fear the burlgar might get angry and kill people--that is the relevant analogy.
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    If the gov't passes a law against burglary and then chooses not to follow through on it for fear the burlgar might get angry and kill people--that is the relevant analogy.
    So it is ok to kill somebody because they MAY kill somebody??
    So everybody can be the judge, jury and executioner because they think somebody may do something bad??

    This kind of thinking will lead to anarchy...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  15. #15  
    Small addition:
    You live in texas right?
    It is legal over there to carry a firearm and a lot of people do.
    This means they may use them to kill people (thats the only thing they do, so why else would you carry one?)

    This means that in your reasoning you can go kill anybody with a gun that looks suspicious... because they may use the gun...
    The police can pack their stuff because their job is not needed, every body can do their job right?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  16.    #16  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    So it is ok to kill somebody because they MAY kill somebody??
    So everybody can be the judge, jury and executioner because they think somebody may do something bad??

    This kind of thinking will lead to anarchy...
    You seem to enjoy taking things out of context, don't you? What it comes down to is this: Iraq has violated the will of the UN. The UN is too afraid to do anything about it. In that context, it is justifiable for a member nation to take up the cause.

    Remember, I am not saying in this particular instance, removal of a state gov't is the right move. I'm just saying the logic behind it is sound.
  17.    #17  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    Small addition:
    You live in texas right?
    It is legal over there to carry a firearm and a lot of people do.
    This means they may use them to kill people (thats the only thing they do, so why else would you carry one?)

    This means that in your reasoning you can go kill anybody with a gun that looks suspicious... because they may use the gun...
    The police can pack their stuff because their job is not needed, every body can do their job right?
    Because your argument rests on a faulty premise (that every person must hold the same opinions as everyone else in their state) I'm not even going to address that. That, and you have a proven track record of stretching things to make your point.
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    You seem to enjoy taking things out of context, don't you? What it comes down to is this: Iraq has violated the will of the UN. The UN is too afraid to do anything about it. In that context, it is justifiable for a member nation to take up the cause.

    Remember, I am not saying in this particular instance, removal of a state gov't is the right move. I'm just saying the logic behind it is sound.
    No it is not, I was giving examples out of context to show the real issue... nobody is above the law... if you dont like how lawenforcement handles the situation fight THAT, do NOT take matters in you own hands...especially not when you have an hidden agenda (on which 90% of the worlds populations probably agrees)...

    I dont disagree with the fact Sadam is a real sonofa and should be dealt with, however the UN is there for a reason, if the US thinks it is above the law the whole international order may crumble...
    As far as 'war on terrorism' (in case we forgot what triggered this whole iraq attack), attacking iraq will only fuel terrorism, it will not stop it.
    I'm not even starting on the fact there is no solid evidence on a link between al quaida en sadam...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  19. #19  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    and you have a proven track record of stretching things to make your point.
    I prefer to call is 'enlarging' things to make the subtle differences more obvious...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  20. #20  
    I agree with most people in that every possible peaceful means to end the problem with Iraq should be sought. But there must be an endpoint. The disagreement is in where that endpoint lay. The difference between the United States and the allies which oppose military action isn't just ideology, it's also a matter of security. Sept. 11 has shown us that the U.S. is a prime target for terrorists and rogue nations and that it is vulnerable. If the U.S. government has evidence that Iraq is an imminent threat then military action is necessary, U.N. be damned. For reasons of security (for instance, keeping our foreign intelligence agents and intelligence aquisition methods safe) I do not expect my government to disclose everything it knows about what is going on in Iraq. The idea that we want the oil is ridiculous. Did we assume control of Kuwaiti oil after we liberated them? The Bush administration has decided that, in a post 9/11 world, the Iraq problem must be dealt with swiftly. We can no longer sit on our hands and wait for the problem to go away. It is time to take the bull by the horns. Saddam Hussein is a sadistic dictator who has been terrorizing his people and playing with the world for 12 years. Moreover, the anti-war activists have been playing right into his hands. Saddam is the Joseph Stalin of our time. We've sent our own troops to protect Kuwait, Kosovo, South Korea, South Vietnam, Somalia, etc. This time it is to protect ourselves.
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