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  1.    #61  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    Where does (or would) the UN get its teeth?
    The US, of course.

    Where does (or would) it get its brain?
    For the most part it comes from the added intelligence and will of the world. Of course at times the UN is bamboozled or makes incredibly stupid decisions. Additionally, it is sometimes bullied. But not often. And on the whole it is a great organization.
  2. #62  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    [off topic]
    BTW just wanted to say how much I appreciate it how we can have this discussion without it turning into namecalling etc.
    I really appreciate that the VC/TC users show respect to other members even in their political views sometime seem to be 100% reversed...
    Also like the fact that we actually having an discusion.. it would be really boring if we'd all agree...
    [/off topic]
    ToolkiT,
    You are right. I have long been impressed with the tenor (sp?) of the conversations here about things that would cause flames and namecalling on other sites. And I think it helps us all to have rational "discussions" with others who don't share our particular viewpoints. (In fact, the only mean-spirited post I recall reading in a discussion you and I were in was *gulp* from me in response to a post of yours....sorry about that...)
    Kelley
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    So the possibility exists that the guys caught attempting to smuggle explosives into the USA from Canada (at Niagra Falls) might not be terrorists? Did you know it's easier for people to smuggle things over the Canadian border than it is for them to smuggle things over the Mexican border? Maybe it's because the Mexicans, even though they often disagree with the US over policy, take the idea of terrorists more seriously? It can't be because they have more money to spend on the problem.
    You really dissapoint me on this one, I held you in higher respect...
    The fact it is easier to smuggle from Canada then from Mexico has nothing to do about either county's political views on terrorism...
    It has got to do with that other 'war' the US is fighting.. the 'war on drugs' and illegal immigration. The canada border is less patrolled since less people use it to smuggle things or people into the US...



    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    post colonial European nations with no real power.
    ROFL, that explains why the US is so afraid for the united Europe and a strong Euro... The US economy is getting weaker and weaker, so is europe's but not at the same rate...
    In the long run Unified Europe will be a lot more powerfull than you may believe right now...

    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    It really frustrates a lot of people around the world that America doesn't just collapse and implode. It constantly proves that their theories and opinions on how life should work are just that, theories and opinions.
    Actually that is the first time to hear this story... and I've met a lot of people around the world...
    The thing that frustrates a lot of people is that the US messing in other peoples bussiness... It may do it with good intentions but the end result is allways a mess...
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  4. #64  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Alright, I can't take it any more. You're such a goody little **& &D(*&(*D &(&()((*)(&(* (^&*^%&*% &*%*&^&*(%&(*^(&% )*(^% &(*^*&%^&*(*)%(&*&()& .
    I like you too Krammy
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  5. #65  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon

    (In fact, the only mean-spirited post I recall reading in a discussion you and I were in was *gulp* from me in response to a post of yours....sorry about that...)
    Kelley
    appologies accepted...
    Sometimes I word things too strong too, just to see the reaction...
    We all make mistakes...
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  6. #66  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    You really dissapoint me on this one, I held you in higher respect...
    The fact it is easier to smuggle from Canada then from Mexico has nothing to do about either county's political views on terrorism...
    It has got to do with that other 'war' the US is fighting.. the 'war on drugs' and illegal immigration. The canada border is less patrolled since less people use it to smuggle things or people into the US...
    Most illegal aliens that come through the US border from Mexico come overland through the back country, miles from any roads. Most drugs come in by plane or boat. The US gets a little bit of help with the drug issue from Mexico, not much at all with illegal aliens.

    The act of smuggling explosives, contraband, etc. has always been easier over the Canadian border because the Canadians are only concerned about their own residents smuggling lower priced US products into Canada. Many many guns have come over through Canada. A lot of it is driven right through the checkpoints with nice paperwork. It's much easier to smuggle things than people. That's why we're so concerned now about terrorists slipping explosives, etc. through from the North.

    As to holding me in high regard- you gotta watch those kind of judgement calls - I still hold you in high regard, even when you make mistakes!

    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    ROFL, that explains why the US is so afraid for the united Europe and a strong Euro... The US economy is getting weaker and weaker, so is europe's but not at the same rate...
    In the long run Unified Europe will be a lot more powerfull than you may believe right now...
    I, for one, am not worried. We can get much 'weaker' before we're in trouble. I also don't believe in the "us" vs "them" mentality that a strong European Union means a weak USA.
    A strong, united Europe could mean that y'all could take care of your less well off cousins instead of expecting the US to.

    When's the last time any other country gave us an aid package?

    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    Actually that is the first time to hear this story... and I've met a lot of people around the world...
    The thing that frustrates a lot of people is that the US messing in other peoples bussiness... It may do it with good intentions but the end result is allways a mess...
    You need to speak to more Americans!

    That last crack sounds like when anybody tries to get involved with anybody elses business.

    Vietnam started out as a French problem, remember? If the French hadn't messed things up so bad Vietnam would have never split and the communists wouldn't have been able to squeeze their way in. We sould have stayed away, but we had treaties with the French. Convenient how often people forget how many times America has gotten involved with other peoples business because we were asked.

    Africa got screwed by the British, French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, and the Portegeuse -did I leave anyone out? All those nations ransacked that continent and it's still reeling from colonialism. We never took place in the colonialism (I realize that we probably didn't because as a nation we were too spread out, weak etc. to bother with Africa) in Africa, but we have spent billions trying to help.

    I guess the truth of the matter is that none of us can be isolationists anymore. We will always be "getting into each other's business", and the only sure thing is that we won't ever see everyone agree about whether it was a good thing or a bad thing!
    Last edited by BobbyMike; 02/15/2003 at 08:31 PM.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  7. #67  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    Most illegal aliens that come through the US border from Mexico come overland through the back country, miles from any roads. Most drugs come in by plane or boat. The US gets a little bit of help with the drug issue from Mexico, not much at all with illegal aliens.

    The act of smuggling explosives, contraband, etc. has always been easier over the Canadian border because the Canadians are only concerned about their own residents smuggling lower priced US products into Canada. Many many guns have come over through Canada. A lot of it is driven right through the checkpoints with nice paperwork. It's much easier to smuggle things than people. That's why we're so concerned now about terrorists slipping explosives, etc. through from the North.
    Aren't you turning things around? isnt customs designed to check what gets into your country, instead of leaves the country??
    Why would canada check what goes into the US? that is the US's business...
    Off course a little cooperation between the 2 neighbouring countries would be nice, but it is each countries customs task to check what enters the country..

    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    As to holding me in high regard- you gotta watch those kind of judgement calls - I still hold you in high regard, even when you make mistakes!
    I am a mere mortal, I do make mistakes and I am not ashamed of that fact...i even admit my mistakes from time to time.. more people should do that...

    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    I, for one, am not worried. We can get much 'weaker' before we're in trouble. I also don't believe in the "us" vs "them" mentality that a strong European Union means a weak USA.
    A strong, united Europe could mean that y'all could take care of your less well off cousins instead of expecting the US to.
    I agree one doesnt automatically lead to the other. However I sometimes get the feeling some americans do.. hence all their protection mesurements...

    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    You need to speak to more Americans!
    I speak to plenty americans, both online and IRL..
    Dont get to meet many 'rednecks' though.. they seem to stay at home a lot...
    The americans that do travel seem to be a lot more openminded than the ones that never leave their state or even county...

    Originally posted by BobbyMike

    That last crack sounds like when anybody tries to get involved with anybody elses business.

    Vietnam started out as a French problem, remember? If the French hadn't messed things up so bad Vietnam would have never split and the communists wouldn't have been able to squeeze their way in. We sould have stayed away, but we had treaties with the French. Convenient how often people forget how many times America has gotten involved with other peoples business because we were asked.

    Africa got screwed by the British, French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, and the Portegeuse -did I leave anyone out? All those nations ransacked that continent and it's still reeling from colonialism.

    I guess the truth of the matter is that none of us can be isolationists anymore. We will always be "getting into each other's business", and the only sure thing is that we won't ever see everyone agree about whether it was a good thing or a bad thing!
    I agree most european countries messed up in the past.. but they learned from it... the US still needs to realize that...
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  8.    #68  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    ROFL, that explains why the US is so afraid for the united Europe and a strong Euro... The US economy is getting weaker and weaker, so is europe's but not at the same rate...
    In the long run Unified Europe will be a lot more powerfull than you may believe right now...
    Think so? Looking at a combination of economics (market structures) and demographics (little European immigration, plumetting birth rates) it would seem to me that Europe is going to have serious problems in the coming 50 years. I'm not saying the US has it all figured out, but I would be willing to bet that the European model is not sustainable.
  9. #69  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Think so? Looking at a combination of economics (market structures) and demographics (little European immigration, plumetting birth rates) it would seem to me that Europe is going to have serious problems in the coming 50 years. I'm not saying the US has it all figured out, but I would be willing to bet that the European model is not sustainable.
    'little European immigration' how do you mean? low amount of people moving into or outof Europe??
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  10. #70  
    Of course in this case the would-be bombers would be a terrorist. But what does this one particular case had to do with what I had to say? Are you suggesting that the U.S invade Canada to stop terrorists from crossing over?


    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    So the possibility exists that the guys caught attempting to smuggle explosives into the USA from Canada (at Niagra Falls) might not be terrorists? Did you know it's easier for people to smuggle things over the Canadian border than it is for them to smuggle things over the Mexican border? Maybe it's because the Mexicans, even though they often disagree with the US over policy, take the idea of terrorists more seriously? It can't be because they have more money to spend on the problem.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  11. #71  
    Sometimes I think that the U.N would be better off without the U.S. The U.S. only use the UN's name when it fits its own agenda.


    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    The US, of course.

    For the most part it comes from the added intelligence and will of the world. Of course at times the UN is bamboozled or makes incredibly stupid decisions. Additionally, it is sometimes bullied. But not often. And on the whole it is a great organization.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  12. #72  
    Why would an American smuggle guns from Canada when anyone with a oulse can go and buy one legally at a store? The last time I checked the Canadian govt is concerned about guns ending up in Canada from the U.S. where the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution.


    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    Many many guns have come over through Canada.
    My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?
  13.    #73  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT


    'little European immigration' how do you mean? low amount of people moving into or outof Europe??
    Into
  14. #74  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Into
    You got to be kidding right? The biggest issue in Europe at the moment is too many people wanting to enter Europe...
    If you really think the other way you are absolutely clueless about European issues...
    NoFI
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  15.    #75  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT


    You got to be kidding right? The biggest issue in Europe at the moment is too many people wanting to enter Europe...
    If you really think the other way you are absolutely clueless about European issues...
    NoFI
    that's my point. People think there are too many and they are keeping them out. I'm not saying no one wants to go there, I'm saying the imigration policies are too restrictive. Please don't insult me either. Thanks.
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    that's my point. People think there are too many and they are keeping them out. I'm not saying no one wants to go there, I'm saying the imigration policies are too restrictive. Please don't insult me either. Thanks.
    I got some nr's off the CIA website
    Check them out:

    Code:
    Land	Area (land only)	population	KM2 per person	people per KM2	pop. Growth rate (in%)	Net migration rate:	
    US	9,158,960	280,562,489	0.032644991	30.63257062	0.89	3,5	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    							
    France	545,630	59,765,983	0.009129441	109.5357348	0.35	0.64	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    Germany	349,223	83,251,851	0.004194778	238.3916609	0.26	3.99	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    Spain	499,542	40,077,100	0.012464525	80.22768856	0.009	0.87	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    Holland	33,883	16,067,754	0.002108758	474.2128501	0.53	2.35	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    Belgium	30,230	10,274,595	0.002942208	339.8807476	0.15	0.97	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    Average:			0.006167942	248.4497364	0.2598	1.764	
    
    Australia	7,617,930	19,546,792	0.38972789	2.565892834	0.96	4.2	migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
    
    Basically Average of the (semi-randomly picked) European countries population density is 8 times higher of that of the US...

    Population growth and immigration is higher in the US (growth about 3,5 times and immigration 1,5 times)
    Countries like France and Spain have very low migration rates while Germany has a very high one...

    So the truth is in the middle (as usual), US has more space and is having the bigger pop. growth and migration figures..
    The migration rate of the US kinda surprized me seeing how hard it is getting into the US (both legally and illegally...)

    The overall 'winner' is Australia, it beats all figures hands down.

    P.s I was not (trying to) isult you (hence the NoFI, No Flame Intended.
    But given what you wrote it looked like you were saying Europe had a problem with shrinking population and not enough immigration...
    Given the population density most europeans think there is too much immigration at the moment...Which is probably true for some countries and not true for others...
    My appologies if I misinterpreted your words. I worded it especially with 'If you think XXXXX' you now clarified you didnt think that so the If loop goes into the ELSE section
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  17.    #77  
    Population density may be a problem, but in my mind, with relaxed trade restrictions sustainability shouldn't be an issue.

    If you can (I'm too lazy) pull up some figures on projected retirees per worker for the EU and US over the coming 50 years. It's startling. Social Security is facing a huge crunch in this country, but it is dwarfed by Europe's. The US's native born birthrate (near 2.0 I believe), combined with immigration will lead to overall population growth. Europe has an even more "advanced" birthrate below 2.0, which will lead to natural population decline. Their relatively closed-door immigration policy may not be enough to bring the net growth figure into positive territory (unfortunately the sentiments to which you referred will make changing this politically costly). Unfortunately that may lead to a situation where there are not enough productive citizens to support what is clearly a generous pension system.

    Additionally, it is my belief that the economic regulations result in the inefficient allocation of human and physical capital, further enhancing the coming crunch.

    Oh, and sorry for saying you were insulting me. I just thought your jump from my comment to saying I know nothing of European politics a stretch. I think I actually know quite a bit. Especially compared to most Americans.
  18. #78  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Population density may be a problem, but in my mind, with relaxed trade restrictions sustainability shouldn't be an issue.

    If you can (I'm too lazy) pull up some figures on projected retirees per worker for the EU and US over the coming 50 years. It's startling. Social Security is facing a huge crunch in this country, but it is dwarfed by Europe's. The US's native born birthrate (near 2.0 I believe), combined with immigration will lead to overall population growth. Europe has an even more "advanced" birthrate below 2.0, which will lead to natural population decline. Their relatively closed-door immigration policy may not be enough to bring the net growth figure into positive territory (unfortunately the sentiments to which you referred will make changing this politically costly). Unfortunately that may lead to a situation where there are not enough productive citizens to support what is clearly a generous pension system.

    Additionally, it is my belief that the economic regulations result in the inefficient allocation of human and physical capital, further enhancing the coming crunch.

    Oh, and sorry for saying you were insulting me. I just thought your jump from my comment to saying I know nothing of European politics a stretch. I think I actually know quite a bit. Especially compared to most Americans.
    Allthough I agree with concept that there will be a problem in the furure regarding costs of pension I don't quite get your maths...
    just the birthrate says nothing about the population growth of population density... How are you jumping to the conclusion that with a birthrate below 2.0 the population will decrease?
    Given the CIA stats the European countries are still growing..even if it is at a slower rate as the US..
    Please explain...
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  19.    #79  
    I'm not referring to population density, though to the extent that land area isn't increasing (which is the case for most of Europe, I'm sure, except if they dig another Chunnel and enlarge France or the UK) population growth and density increases are the same. If a birthrate (defined as average # of babies a woman has over her life) is below 2 (actually a bit more than 2, like 2.1 accounting for early deaths, nuns, etc) population must decline in the long run (as we cannot live forever and it takes two to make a baby). It doesn't surprise me that the European countries are still growing, though this is probably the result of increasing lifespans, not greater than sustainable birthrates (imagine if only one person had one baby per year, but no one died. The population would be increasing, though clearly this will lead to a massive pension crisis). The problem is in the future as the bulge (about the same as our boomers?) hits their pension years. To the extent they are a pay-as-you go system like ours, there's going to be a problem. Another problem I foresee is that with huge demand from pensioners for goods and services, but with fewer productive workers to supply it, the prices of those goods might skyrocket, reducing the use of an accumulated capital stock because of inflation.

    Anyway, my point is that Europe could quite possibly be fading as an economic powerhouse. The US has nowhere to go but down as well. I just think we are better positioned for the future than Europe. Of course this has no bearing on moral justness. I am not saying our opinions are a priori any more valid than Europe's (or anyone else for that matter).
  20. #80  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    appologies accepted...
    Sometimes I word things too strong too, just to see the reaction...
    We all make mistakes...
    Group Hug!!
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