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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    You stopped making sense here. There is no 'simply'.
    You say one thing, I say another. Saying things are 'simply' this or that, so you're right, is not an argument.

    God just simply exists. So do weapons of mass destruction. They do. I said 'simply'!!

    (apart from that, the rest of your post does make sense of course )
    You are simply wrong. And by that, I mean to say clearly that you are wrong, not that you are clearly wrong.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    You are simply wrong. And by that, I mean to say clearly that you are wrong, not that you are clearly wrong.
    No, you don't.
  3. #43  
    I don't agree with all your statements that Governments are the only ones to blame.

    Do you know what "lobbies" are ?

    Well, Governments take actions on the behalf of lobbies who give in return fundings for whatever they chose to fund.

    So government does not decide **alone** of what they do, you have to take into account lobbies, millitary intelligence, other countries, United Nations, Corporations, analysts, and so on...

    Governements are just the vector for all those organizations.

    But, yes, people in governments tends to suck as many bucks as they can to improve their wealth, and that's because today's govs are treated like Corporations, with ad campaigns (election campaigns actually) and investments, dealing with banks and corps to supply funds to whatever action they take...

    In France for instance, government gave a lot of money to save banks during 2008 crisis, and banks tends to dictate their own rules now, whereas our government like it or not (but they like it, don't be fooled).

    So, no : govs are not the one totaly in charge here.

    And yes : corporations dictate their own rules and make sure that govs follow them.

    Just learn today's economy structure and a bit of economic history of 20th and 21st century to know what I'm talking about. Governements don't act by themselves since... What? The end of the royalty ? Maybe not for america, but today...

    Here's an exemple of governement acting under a military lobby:



    And now a bit of reading to expand your culture :P

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbyin..._United_States
    Proud Veer and Touchpad owner
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by grasshoper View Post
    corporations dictate their own rules and make sure that govs follow them.
    so true
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #45  
    So, watching the LA protests this morning, it looks a whole lot like this is being pushed by government unions. Ironic, since much of the economic crunch local governments are feeling is caused by unsustainable union-negotiated pension plans.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So, watching the LA protests this morning, it looks a whole lot like this is being pushed by government unions. Ironic, since much of the economic crunch local governments are feeling is caused by unsustainable union-negotiated pension plans.
    The irony lies in the cause/effect you imply to be self-evident.
    Is that a deliberate attempt at skipping the reality check and cutting straight to the snappy, self-serving arguments?
    I ridicule, ergo I'm right?
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    The irony lies in the cause/effect you imply to be self-evident.
    Is that a deliberate attempt at skipping the reality check and cutting straight to the snappy, self-serving arguments?
    I ridicule, ergo I'm right?
    What is the reality check I'm missing? Is it that I'm not point all 10 fingers straight at the evil corporations? I haven't ever stated that there aren't valid concerns about corporate-government confluence. But there is enough blame to go around. Don't you think? Why do unions get a pass?
  8. #48  
    Besides the fact they're raging against the wrong people (it's not the bank's faults, it's the federal government's for their poor policies). They're an aimless group of hypocritical and lazy socialist and communist people who unduly believe everything should be handed to them on a silver platter while they liveblog on their $600 iPads about how bad they feel for the poverty in America.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    No, that reeks of 'left' and 'socialism' to many here in Off-Topic.
    Bтттттттd.

    It's much better to have the banks keep the profit when they do well, have them take risks to do even better, and have everyone else pick up the tab when they mess up, for fear of all the toppling that could happen. Of course it wouldn't be complete without taking the entire world with you in a downward spiral, only to criticize them afterwards for not taking measures to clean up the mess you caused.

    Let the 1000 little excuses and arguments begin to cover up 1 big lie.
    HI all,

    What bothers me about the banks is as follows:

    1. they were stupid enough to start handing out zero % down mortgages, that will NEVER amortize any thing of the house...so when rates went up why would people continue to live there???

    2. They were also offering zero credit check mortgages..

    Now the banks screw up and want all of the rest of us to pay for their mistakes...

    I've used the same bank here in town that I did when we moved here...my Folks & I opened our bank accounts 1 month to the day before we moved here 15 years ago...they day they told me they were started to charge $5 a month for debit card transactions...I went over tot he credit union that recently opened here and moved our accounts...

    The manager at my old back said they'll all be doing it in a year or so....

    I've been with two credit unions back in NYC for decades...so told the old bank's manager...yeah right and left....now Suntrust is dropping the $5 fee but really just hiding by raising other fees....so it was time to move on.

    OH BTW...most of the huge NY banks were my clients when I was still working....most of my work was at the corporate headquarters such as Citibank, Bank of NY etc....trust me the people at the top have a great deal....I've been int he rooms used for the BOD of these firms....Bank of NY has two working fireplaces large enough for me to stand in with room to spare....hand woven silk carpets...baccarat crystal water glasses while they and they complain how much it cost them to fuel their private plane or that they screwed the bank by using the Corp plane to take them to Vail or the south of France...etc...

    Sadly they screw up and they want US to pay for it...not on your life....they banks didn't lose $ on us...I've never been late on my mortgage...so why are they in my face about these fees...

    It wouldn't have bothered me, if they took the blame for their stupidity and didn't rape the little guy for the banks on foolish behavior.

    The banks needed a good slapping down and frankly they haven't been slapped down enough!

    Take care,

    Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  10. #50  
    I think a lot of people are missing the point...I'm not saying the government is responsible for everything. But they need to be the most accountable for the situation because it is their responsibility. I've said it before, corporate America doesn't owe me anything but the government I play taxes to sure does.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by blue duck butter View Post
    while they liveblog on their $600 iPads about how bad they feel for the poverty in America.
    Don't forget their Macs which cost thousands. If you spend that kind of money on a computer you have no reason to complain about poverty, especially when there are cheap ones that cost $300 or when you can buy used ones for even cheaper. Buy a cheap computer and donate the rest of the money you would've spent to charity.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by rsanchez1 View Post
    Don't forget their Macs which cost thousands. If you spend that kind of money on a computer you have no reason to complain about poverty, especially when there are cheap ones that cost $300 or when you can buy used ones for even cheaper. Buy a cheap computer and donate the rest of the money you would've spent to charity.
    I always love disingenuous arguments like this one. Lets attack the messenger and ignore the issue. Brilliant.
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    I always love disingenuous arguments like this one. Lets attack the messenger and ignore the issue. Brilliant.
    Attacking the messenger implies there's a message.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by residentcomedian View Post
    Embarrassing to America, or legitimate?

    (I think it's embarrassing)
    The embarrassment lies not in the protesters, but in the problems that they are addressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Attacking the messenger implies there's a message.
    Its only unclear to those who wish it to be so. Most everyone else knows what they are protesting:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomberg Businessweek
    Link - the overall message is reasonably coherent. They want more and better jobs, more equal distribution of income, less profit (or no profit) for banks, lower compensation for bankers, and more strictures on banks with regard to negotiating consumer services such as mortgages and debit cards. They also want to reduce the influence that corporations—financial firms in particular—wield in politics, and they want a more populist set of government priorities: bailouts for student debtors and mortgage holders, not just for banks.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 11/26/2011 at 01:12 PM.
  15. #55  
    I find their claims to be legit. This whole situation of Government dictated by corporations is unbearable. I know what I'm talking about since I have time to document myself ALOT about all this, and trust me, it's worst than what they make us believe. I could make you an expose about this, but a forum may not be the right place :/

    That people don't feel touched by all this, or didn't notice/experience it, doesn't mean it does not exist. There's a shiny layer on top of this society that makes some believe that this system is good, whereas underneath lies a dark, ugly layer, where lot of people are starving, living in insalubrious places, don't have money for a doctor or medicine nor education... The list is long.

    We are only 20% of the world living with good facilities and an average if not good way of living. The rest of the world is a mess because of the politics in place in developed contries. Don't you realize that ?
    Proud Veer and Touchpad owner
  16. #56  
    Because of recent health issues, I find myself having to make a major career change, and it has not been a good thing. 20 years in the same field, and I find the current market unwilling to hire me for anything else. Because of this, we have found ourselves pretty much making the same money we were 20 years ago, and it does *not* stretch as far these days.

    There are some major changes needed in this country. One of the biggest being the need to change the perception from the eighties pop-psyche bs of "It's not your fault." The death of personal responsibility has changed our culture in a very negative way, and we are finally seeing the fruits of that change.

    -- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Its only unclear to those who wish it to be so. Most everyone else knows what they are protesting:
    Is it really that? Or does the overall vagueness of the message leave it open for reporters and journalists to put their own spin on it while still sounding somewhat correct? Start from this premise: life isn't fair. The rich get their money on the backs of the poor. Now, fill in the blanks. It all works out.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Is it really that? Or does the overall vagueness of the message leave it open for reporters and journalists to put their own spin on it while still sounding somewhat correct? Start from this premise: life isn't fair. The rich get their money on the backs of the poor. Now, fill in the blanks. It all works out.
    I agree with you, its certainly not the repetitive batch of political soundbites and talking points we are used to. But at the same time, anyone who is why they are there is being a bit disingenuous.

    Douglas Rushkoff has an interesting take on the movement in this article .

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Rushkoff writing for CNN
    In fact, we are witnessing America's first true Internet-era movement, which -- unlike civil rights protests, labor marches, or even the Obama campaign -- does not take its cue from a charismatic leader, express itself in bumper-sticker-length goals and understand itself as having a particular endpoint.... Anyone who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher. What upsets banking's defenders and politicians alike is the refusal of this movement to state its terms or set its goals in the traditional language of campaigns...
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I agree with you, its certainly not the repetitive batch of political soundbites and talking points we are used to. But at the same time, anyone who is why they are there is being a bit disingenuous.
    You're right. These guys are not the types to .
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    You're right. These guys are not the types to .
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 03/25/2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: added additional links
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