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  1.    #1  
    Memorial day is a great way to enjoy a three day weekend, and celebrate the start of summer, but its also a time to remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. Whether you agree with the war they fought or not, they laid down their lives for us, trying to do what they thought was right.

    There were those who died while in combat, fighting in Europe, the Pacific, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere - the ones you hear about in the news. But what you don't hear about are the injuries that occur during war, that don't kill right away but linger and cause suffering until the veteran finally succumbs.

    There are the physical injuries, like traumatic brain syndrome but there are the psycholoigcal injuries, like post traumatic stress syndrome, which can disable a veteran, and in the absence of proper recognition of these problems, or proper treatment, can limit the ability to lead a normal life, or even lead to things like suicide.

    I don't want to take up time with my own stories of people my own unit, the 7th Infantry division, or those patients of mine who died at the VA hospital I work at, but I hope all of us remember those who died, or who may be suffering from what they tried to do to help us, in their service.

    And it does not have to be just on Memorial day. Perhaps next time you see a homeless veteran on the street, maybe have a bit more sympathy for them, knowing what they tried to do for all of us. Don't call them a bum, instead, try thanking them for their service and giving them a salute.

    And if you feel a bit motivated to do something more, try working as a volunteer in a Veterans Administration hospital, you may find that you like helping those vets, and giving a bit back to those who sacrificed so much for you.

    I welcome any comments anyone may have about this.

  2. #2  
    I thank all who have served the USA military.
    Freedom IS NOT Free!!!!!!!
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  3. #3  
    Infinite thanks for those who have fought and died for our country's freedom, even if our own government and police force decide to spit in their faces.



    Pretty sure this is not what they died for. :-(
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by IGNTNUNLMTD View Post
    Infinite thanks for those who have fought and died for our country's freedom, even if our own government and police force decide to spit in their faces.



    Pretty sure this is not what they died for. :-(
    Physically resisting arrest is one thing, but arresting a couple for quietly swaying back and forth at the Jefferson memorial???? What comes next, throwing rowdy schoolchildren, or their supervising parents/guardians in jail for disrupting our "quiet contemplation"? You are totally right, this is not what our soldiers fought for, nor what Jefferson stood for. This is not freedom, this is oppression.
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by 4r4qg View Post
    Freedom IS NOT Free!!!!!!!
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Physically resisting arrest is one thing, but arresting a couple for quietly swaying back and forth at the Jefferson memorial???? What comes next, throwing rowdy schoolchildren, or their supervising parents/guardians in jail for disrupting our "quiet contemplation"? You are totally right, this is not what our soldiers fought for, nor what Jefferson stood for. This is not freedom, this is oppression.
    Does anyone know what the back story is here?
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Does anyone know what the back story is here?
    Yes. Adam Kokesh and a few others were at the Memorial quietly (no music) dancing in order to protest a recent ruling about dancing near monuments. The officers responded violently and at many points in the video visibly worked to curtail free speech. At one point, an officer even seizes the camera of a news cameraman, which is a heinous and egregious crime in the eyes of the First Amendment (no, like, it's ACTUALLY illegal to inhibit or censor the press in any way).

    Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by IGNTNUNLMTD View Post
    Yes. Adam Kokesh and a few others were at the Memorial quietly (no music) dancing in order to protest a recent ruling about dancing near monuments. The officers responded violently and at many points in the video visibly worked to curtail free speech. At one point, an officer even seizes the camera of a news cameraman, which is a heinous and egregious crime in the eyes of the First Amendment (no, like, it's ACTUALLY illegal to inhibit or censor the press in any way).

    Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
    Thanks for the info. I had to do some reading up on this story. From what I can tell, those guys got exactly what they were looking for. Don't you think?
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Thanks for the info. I had to do some reading up on this story. From what I can tell, those guys got exactly what they were looking for. Don't you think?
    On a much larger scale but in the same way, Rosa Parks got exactly what she was looking for too. It's called justice.
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    P.S. Rosa Parks got exactly what she was looking for too.
    Are you seriously comparing the two actions?
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    On a much larger scale but in the same way, Rosa Parks got exactly what she was looking for too. It's called justice.
    Quoted for truth. Like you said, different scales, same idea.
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Are you seriously comparing the two actions?
    The actual injustice in this current example is, as you imply, trivial compared to what Rosa Parks stood up for. But the same principle of standing up to injustice wherever it may lie still applies and I respect that. It serves as a positive example to our young people.
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    The actual injustice in this current example is, as you imply, trivial compared to what Rosa Parks stood up for. But the same principle of standing up to injustice wherever it may lie still applies and I respect that. It serves as a positive example to our young people.
    Yes, I'd say trivial is about the most it would rank. Not being able to act disrespectfully in a national memorial designated to pay respect to a founding father is not, in my mind, to be compared on any level whatsoever to the institutionalized segregation of an entire race. Furthermore, Rosa Parks did not stage the event. She did not call for cameras to be gathered about ready for the moment. And she did not resist arrest. She did not cry and scream about it. She was willingly arrested and willingly endured the consequences of her actions.

    The point is, if people want to protest what they think is an unjust law by breaking that law they need to, like Mrs Parks, be willing to suffer the consequences. If those consequences require arrest, they need to be willing to be arrested. If they resist arrest, they need to be willing to be taken by force. The professional protesters from Code Pink and elsewhere who participated in this stunt weren't innocent bystanders or lovers engulfed in the passion of the moment. They knew exactly how they wanted it to pan out and the Park Police were willing to oblige. So, I can't really bring myself to feel sympathy for them.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Yes, I'd say trivial is about the most it would rank. Not being able to act disrespectfully in a national memorial
    designated to pay respect to a founding father
    You know why people dance at weddings, bar mitsvahs, etc., its a show of respect and love for the people who are being honored. In the times before Jefferson, there were laws against public dancing, put in place by the Puritans, who considered it immoral. With the founding of the United States, these prohibitions were not continued and thats because our founding fathers realized outlawing public dancing was just plain oppressive.

    No, rather than feeling disrespected, I think that Jefferson would have been honored to have people dancing at his memorial. In defense, here's what he himself wrote about it:

    "The ornaments too, and the amusements of life, are entitled to their portion of attention. These for a female, are dancing, drawing, and music. The first is a healthy exercise, elegant and very attractive for young people."
    Thomas Jefferson

    "Dancing is a healthy and elegant exercise, a specific against social awkwardness. Thomas Jefferson

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Furthermore, Rosa Parks did not stage the event. She did not call for cameras to be gathered about ready for the moment. And she did not resist arrest.

    She did not cry and scream about it. She was willingly arrested and willingly endured the consequences of her actions.
    As if she had a choice, as if her life would not have been at risk if she did anything else but. Many years after Rosa Parks did what she did, they were still lynching uppity blacks in the deep south.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The point is, if people want to protest what they think is an unjust law by breaking that law they need to, like Mrs Parks, be willing to suffer the consequences.
    the protestors seemed to be very willing to suffer the consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    If those consequences require arrest, they need to be willing to be arrested.
    they seemed to me to be very willing to be arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    If they resist arrest, they need to be willing to be taken by force.
    they seemed to be very willing to be taken by force

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The professional protesters from Code Pink and elsewhere who participated in this stunt weren't innocent bystanders or lovers engulfed in the passion of the moment. They knew exactly how they wanted it to pan out and the Park Police were willing to oblige. So, I can't really bring myself to feel sympathy for them.
    Were Martin Luther King and the other heros of the civil rights movement innocent bystanders? No they were highly organized, and they staged events, many events. In fact, even an event at "a national memorial designated to pay respect' - it was a place called the Lincoln Memorial, for speech called "I have a dream".

    I sure hope nobody danced at that event, as it would have been highly disrespectful.
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    You know why people dance at weddings, bar mitsvahs, etc., its a show of respect and love for the people who are being honored. In the times before Jefferson, there were laws against public dancing, put in place by the Puritans, who considered it immoral. With the founding of the United States, these prohibitions were not continued and thats because our founding fathers realized outlawing public dancing was just plain oppressive.
    You know as well as I that it wasn't about the dance. The dance itself, the people who gathered, the cameras, etc, were all about a protest in the memorial itself--which is not a public venue. If you think I'm somehow against dancing I think we have a bit of a disconnect.

    As if she had a choice, as if her life would not have been at risk if she did anything else but. Many years after Rosa Parks did what she did, they were still lynching uppity blacks in the deep south.
    Are you saying she would have resisted arrest if her life wasn't in danger? Don't you think she was risking her safety simply by doing what she did?

    the protestors seemed to be very willing to suffer the consequences


    they seemed to me to be very willing to be arrested


    they seemed to be very willing to be taken by force
    More than willing; almost like they wanted it, eh? Which is exactly why I don't feel any sympathy for them. None of the screaming or feigned shock by the protesters made me want to side with them.

    Were Martin Luther King and the other heros of the civil rights movement innocent bystanders? No they were highly organized, and they staged events, many events. In fact, even an event at "a national memorial designated to pay respect' - it was a place called the Lincoln Memorial, for speech called "I have a dream".
    You seem bent on comparing this to segregation and the Civil Rights Movement and I just can't go there with you. No offense intended but I honestly think its a seriously inappropriate comparison.

    Given that there are a multitude of venues, including many public parks and streets, where these people could have staged their protest without any incident, I fail to see how this is in any way a civil rights issue. Had they protested on the mall, which you depicted above, or in any of the adjacent streets, there would have been no concern (which, of course, was exactly why they chose the place they did, but I digress). The right of free assembly does not mean people are allowed to gather anywhere without respect to proper permission, appropriateness of venue, or respect for others.
  16.    #16  
    So dancing is disrespectful when its done in places you dont want. For example, you can dance and sing in church, but somehow it's blasphemous in the Jefferson memorial. Oh, and you don't like how the people complained when they get body slammed and carted off. So be it, I am afraid we will never agree on this.

    But I do agree with you that resisting arrest did not help their case any. Also I agree that Rosa Parks was a very brave woman. Also you are right, what she did goes far beyond what these dancing people did.

    I do appreciate being able to debate these type of issues with you in a respectful manner, even if we do not always agree on things And sorry about the rolling eyes at the end of my last post, it was a bit snarky, I know.

    Not to throw this thread off track or anything, but do you have any opinion about honoring our fallen soldiers on Memorial day?
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/31/2011 at 02:51 AM.
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    So dancing is disrespectful when its done in places you dont want. For example, you can dance and sing in church, but somehow it's blasphemous in the Jefferson memorial.
    Not at all. As I said, it's not about dancing. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a fair sum that if you and your wife went to the Jefferson Memorial and held each other, swaying, as those folks in the video, there's not an officer around that would arrest you or even cite you. You see, I go with Occam's Razor on this one. It's incomprehensible to me that Park police would interrupt a couple of people dancing calmly in the memorial and ask them to stop. Even more incomprehensible that the police would then arrest them for simply asking "Why?" Still more incomprehensible that a court would uphold that arrest, and utterly mind-boggling that an appeals court would uphold the ruling. Of course, I'm speaking of the original incident that sparked this more recent protest. So, all of that tells me there must be something else going on. That the story being touted may not be the entire truth and there's a simpler explanation. So, I google around and find these videos and see that, indeed, there was more to the issue. There were more than a few people and they were not dancing in place quietly. They were, in fact, making spectacles of themselves. You can see the court ruling here if you're interested in the original incident.

    So, fast forward a bit, there's a minor ruckus in the media, a Facebook page is posted, and professional activists get involved to schedule another dance. This dance is, as I said, more than a dance. It's a protest, as the Facebook page would indicate. It's a protest in an area where protests are not permitted. The Park police were at that point, I believe, well within their jurisdiction to stop the protest.

    Oh, and you don't like how the people complained when they get body slammed and carted off. So be it, I am afraid we will never agree on this.
    Not that I don't like it, necessarily; I just don't sympathize with it. They knew what they were doing because they've done it before.

    I do appreciate being able to debate these type of issues with you in a respectful manner, even if we do not always agree on things
    Likewise!

    And sorry about the rolling eyes at the end of my last post, it was a bit snarky, I know.
    Don't give it another thought.

    Not to throw this thread off track or anything, but do you have any opinion about honoring our fallen soldiers on Memorial day?
    You mean "on track"? Actually, before I got on my soapbox about the other, I was going to wholeheartedly agree with your original post. Having family both that are serving actively and home suffering from injuries sustained in combat, I agree that we can and should do more as individuals, and as a country, for these men and women and their families. Not just on Memorial Day but throughout the year. I find the sacrifices we're making, or seem to want to make today, are pretty lacking in comparison to the sacrifices made by previous generations. Sure, people are getting weary of the war but the fact remains that we have men and women deployed in a war right now and the weariness we feel is nothing compared to the weariness of standing in 120+ degree heat, in full gear, having to be constantly vigilant. If we forget them, not only do we do a disservice to them but we do a disservice to the country. Just as they are out there protecting us, we are--or should be--back here protecting them and their interests.

    Speaking of constant vigilance, I was struck today watching the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns. They've been on constant guard, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for 74 years. That's a pretty impressive and moving commitment to our fallen service members.
  18. #18  
    Actually....the history of Memorial Day was all about honoring those that died in the Civil War. I only bring this up because in the military events you listed ("There were those who died while in combat, fighting in Europe, the Pacific, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere - the ones you hear about in the news.") you failed to mention the Civil War. Perhaps "elsewhere" was referencing here? Lets not forget those that died during the greatest conflict our country had to survive to become even stronger.

    Memorial Day History
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  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Actually....the history of Memorial Day was all about honoring those that died in the Civil War. I only bring this up because in the military events you listed ("There were those who died while in combat, fighting in Europe, the Pacific, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere - the ones you hear about in the news.") you failed to mention the Civil War. Perhaps "elsewhere" was referencing here? Lets not forget those that died during the greatest conflict our country had to survive to become even stronger.

    Memorial Day History
    Good point. In fact it originally was started by freed slaves in south carolina, your home state! To honor fallen union soldiers. Only after WWI was it extended to all US soldiers such as those who died in the countries i mentioned in the OP. Sorry for the omission.

    From Wikipedia:
    "Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday observed on the last Monday of May. Formerly known as Decoration Day, which was first recorded to have been observed by Freedmen (freed enslaved southern blacks) in Charleston, South Carolina in 1865, at the Washington Race Course, to remember the fallen Union soldiers of the Civil War. The recognition of the fallen victims was then enacted under the name Memorial Day by an organization of Union veterans the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) to honor Union soldiers of the American Civil War. Over time, it was extended after World War I to honor all Americans who died in all wars."
    .
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Good point. In fact it originally was started by freed slaves in south carolina, your home state! To honor fallen union soldiers. Only after WWI was it extended to all US soldiers such as those who died in the countries i mentioned in the OP. Sorry for the omission.

    From Wikipedia:
    "Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday observed on the last Monday of May. Formerly known as Decoration Day, which was first recorded to have been observed by Freedmen (freed enslaved southern blacks) in Charleston, South Carolina in 1865, at the Washington Race Course, to remember the fallen Union soldiers of the Civil War. The recognition of the fallen victims was then enacted under the name Memorial Day by an organization of Union veterans the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) to honor Union soldiers of the American Civil War. Over time, it was extended after World War I to honor all Americans who died in all wars."
    .
    Of course.....the Holiday back then honored all soldiers killed in the Civil War.....both Confederate and Union. Not sure why people are hesitant to mention the Confederate soldiers....odd.
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