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  1.    #1  
    Unions need to realize they aren't above everyone else. It's great to see Gov Walker standing up for the people of his state and not being intimidated by the unions. It's time for union members, especially government union members, to pay for benefits just like everyone else. Perhaps these folks should lose their jobs and see what people have to pay for in the real world? Hang tough Republicans in Wisconsin!

    The amazing part in all this is how the unions have targeted calling the Governor the "H" word and having signs with gun "cross hairs" over his face. Where are all the democrats who like to pin these types of attacks on Tea Party folks? The double standard here is just amazing. As I said in my previous thread before it was removed, I personally don't see the problem with these signs...it's just words....but had these signs been in the hands of Tea Party members, the media and democrats would have been outraged.

    YID With LID: Media Hypocrisy: Why Aren't They Covering "Hate Speech" of Wisconsin Protests ?

    Oh, and it was also nice to see physicians making false "sick notes" for people who aren't sick. I think this shows doctors are not the ethical people we all want to think they are.
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  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #3  
    Too bad the Governor of California is in bed with some of the same people who are breaking the state. Of course, he's had a lot of bed partners.
  3.    #4  
    Ahhhhh.....the obama tactics. Say something enough and people start to believe it. That's right, everything is good in Wisconsin....they really don't have any budget issues. Right. The funny thing is, if the unions keep saying it others will believe it and then when they realize the unions do nothing but lie, it will be tooooo late and even deeper cuts will be needed. Time for people to understand, unions lie to get money.
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    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

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  4. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Ahhhhh.....the obama tactics. Say something enough and people start to believe it. That's right, everything is good in Wisconsin....they really don't have any budget issues. Right. The funny thing is, if the unions keep saying it others will believe it and then when they realize the unions do nothing but lie, it will be tooooo late and even deeper cuts will be needed. Time for people to understand, unions lie to get money.
    is that like the ones who insisted that obama is not american, and still do.. or any number of other things that have been said about the man... and still do, in the face of proof to the contrary. Do I think unions must be realistic, that is a resounding YES.
    One must ask oneself though, if you sign a contract with a supplier to buy an item for a given amount, in a court of law you would be forced to honor that agreement. What the hell is the difference between that and a union contract? NOTHING.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    One must ask oneself though, if you sign a contract with a supplier to buy an item for a given amount, in a court of law you would be forced to honor that agreement. What the hell is the difference between that and a union contract? NOTHING.
    Precisely the reason to limit the scope of bargaining in the first place, however that's done. Once you give something its very difficult to take it away so you're reduced to asking for it back.

    What I think is ironic is that the whole idea of collective bargaining is using the strength of numbers to get something for the whole group. But in the face of a choice--lose some benefits or some people get laid off--they're only out for themselves. The people who are protesting are probably betting they're not going to be the ones laid off when the other shoe drops and so they don't care about the ones getting laid off. How's that for collectivism in action? Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
  6.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    is that like the ones who insisted that obama is not american, and still do.. or any number of other things that have been said about the man... and still do, in the face of proof to the contrary. Do I think unions must be realistic, that is a resounding YES.
    One must ask oneself though, if you sign a contract with a supplier to buy an item for a given amount, in a court of law you would be forced to honor that agreement. What the hell is the difference between that and a union contract? NOTHING.
    The FACT is the guy says things, and then doesn't follow through. You can call it what you want, but bottom line, the guy is lying. For him to sit there and say in a speech about how everyone must sacrifice, like a family would have to do, and then not even bring forth an idea that really reduces our debt is just pathetic. The guy acts like he can make the tough decision, but in reality, it's a just a smoke screen.

    As for your question, go look up how bankruptcy works when in a "court of law". They negotiate the debts, and usually the person owed money gets less, but at least something. What the hell is the difference here? Wisconsin is going to go broke unless they reduce what they owe the union folks. So, they (the government union ee's) need to decide if they want less money and benefits and have a job, or keep what they have and lose their job completely. If they listen to their common sense rather than their union thug bosses, they will take the offer and keep their job.
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  7. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Too bad the Governor of California is in bed with some of the same people who are breaking the state. Of course, he's had a lot of bed partners.
    Oh, You mean like Pete Wilson and Enron(W and Cheneys pal Ken Lay) in bed. That only cost Calif. somewhere between 9-43 billion dollars.
  8. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Ahhhhh.....the obama tactics. Say something enough and people start to believe it. That's right, everything is good in Wisconsin....they really don't have any budget issues. Right. The funny thing is, if the unions keep saying it others will believe it and then when they realize the unions do nothing but lie, it will be tooooo late and even deeper cuts will be needed. Time for people to understand, unions lie to get money.
    Budget issues are caused by perpetual debt, nothing else. You have no idea how the financial system works. Everyone should watch this video to find out how the Banksters are fleecing the world before you blame our troubles on "working people".

    Money as Debt

  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by lazslo11 View Post
    Budget issues are caused by perpetual debt, nothing else. You have no idea how the financial system works. Everyone should watch this video to find out how the Banksters are fleecing the world before you blame our troubles on "working people".

    Money as Debt

    wow. Between the bankers and the unions, us regular non union non government employee working tax payers are really screwed.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    The FACT is the guy says things, and then doesn't follow through. You can call it what you want, but bottom line, the guy is lying. For him to sit there and say in a speech about how everyone must sacrifice, like a family would have to do, and then not even bring forth an idea that really reduces our debt is just pathetic. The guy acts like he can make the tough decision, but in reality, it's a just a smoke screen.

    As for your question, go look up how bankruptcy works when in a "court of law". They negotiate the debts, and usually the person owed money gets less, but at least something. What the hell is the difference here? Wisconsin is going to go broke unless they reduce what they owe the union folks. So, they (the government union ee's) need to decide if they want less money and benefits and have a job, or keep what they have and lose their job completely. If they listen to their common sense rather than their union thug bosses, they will take the offer and keep their job.
    wow.. that is a huge leap.. from negotiating to bankruptcy.. fact if you have a company with union employees goes broke, just like a nonunion company,, the employees get Nothing. Are employees any less than say a supplier? To blame the ills of a company on the employees be they union or nonunion is stupid. plain and simple.
    I might add, and its simple, unions fall into the whole free market system, no matter what way you spin it. YOU as a business owner need a given set of people with a given skill set, YOU have to pay. simple free market.
    To claim they remove the businesses right to be competitive is wrong as well, if you as a business can not or will not pay for a given product/commodity, which is exactly what paid employees are, than you go out of business.
    The real difference here is perspective, you feel that unions, associations, etc etc are hampering business from making money. I point to the offshoring of many union jobs, 100s of thousands of them, and yet, the price of many of these items remains high. Why is that, no unions, pennies per hour, no work hour restrictions, etc etc, and yet these products still cost the same or more than they did when they were being done by union people. WHY THE HELL IS THAT? I really wanna see the answer to that one.

    I think the article about how the debt load in Wisconsin was manipulated puts paid to your whole argument about that. In the face of no proof that this did not happen I have to take what the article says as being the truth.
    Last edited by xForsaken; 02/21/2011 at 09:47 AM.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  11. #12  

    http://politifact.com/

    Look at the third item down.

    Yes I don't agree with taking away collective bargaining rights. But lets not try to say we don't have a financial problem here in Wisconsin. I personally don't know what the right answer is but when not enough money is coming in to sustain something then there has to be cuts. Of course Walker seems to have another agenda though because they offered the concessions except they want to keep their bargaining rights so I don't know why he wouldn't even consider that. But anyways both sides seem to spout half-truths and I find that most likely the truth is directly in the middle of the issue.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    .. fact if you have a company with union employees goes broke, just like a nonunion company,, the employees get Nothing..
    This is correct. And this is what's about to happen to a bunch of union employees that work for numerous state and federal agencies. They're broke and in debt. If these employees don't yield back some pay raise rates, and start contributing more towards thier own retirement and health care insurance, they will soon be shutting down.

    Simple economics, xForsaken. For years politicians have promised much more than can be delivered to the unions... and 'the can' has been kicked down the road. Now we're faced with a dead end road.

    It's time to cut these budgets back until these gov's can become solvent again. It should be radical, but as sensible as possible. We're in for a rough ride that will only get rougher if we don't start cutting now.

    Last edited by Micael; 02/21/2011 at 10:09 AM.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    It's time to cut these budgets back until these gov's can become solvent again. It should be radical, but as sensible as possible. We're in for a rough ride that will only get rougher if we don't start cutting now.[/URL]
    You didn't watch the vid did you? It's the interest that keeps you in perpetual debt. How do you think EVERYBODY is broke and the banksters keep giving themselves raises?
  14. #15  
    Micael, i agree, dont get me wrong here, However, your political people should perhaps lead by example. I know, it isnt much compared to the payrolls, but some is better than voting YOURSELF another raise or perk..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #16  
    Can't imagine the uproar if those violent Tea Partiers did something like this.

    YouTube - Wisconsin GOP Senator Glenn Grothman chased, trapped by hecklers, saved by Dem. Rep. Brett Hulsey
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    You're not serious, are you?
    Yes. Leave aside the fact that shouting "you're f-ing dead" at a female colleague on the assembly floor is itself completely out of line. After the shooting in Arizona, an event many tried to link the "hostile rhetoric" of the Tea Party et al, statements like this should not be overlooked.
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Of course it's out of line, of course it should not be overlooked.
    Of course this is not a thread. Uh, it is. I mean threat.
    Are you sure? Obviously, I wasn't there so I can't say how threatening it was but Litjens apparently felt threatened.
  18. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Are you sure? Obviously, I wasn't there so I can't say how threatening it was but Litjens apparently felt threatened.
    What point are you trying to make besides the obvious finger-pointing and making your case by discrediting the opposite. You should be in politics!
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