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  1. groovy's Avatar
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       #1  
    Egypt, Egypt.

    Ok, so I'm fascinated with the situation in Egypt and wondering what the rest of the P|C crowd thinks of it. It looks as though the pro-Mubarak forces have emerged overnight and, perhaps not coincidentally, the situation has turned more violent. These sound to me to be paid agitators who want to stir up what has been a largely peaceful protest so that the government has an excuse to get more aggressive. What does everyone else think? Should Mubarak stay through the September elections or should he go now? What about the American government position, or lack thereof? What should we do, if anything? Is el Baradei the answer or a Trojan horse, as many would say? Also, if there are any Egyptian members, your perspective would be appreciated.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Egypt, Egypt.

    Ok, so I'm fascinated with the situation in Egypt and wondering what the rest of the P|C crowd thinks of it. It looks as though the pro-Mubarak forces have emerged overnight and, perhaps not coincidentally, the situation has turned more violent.

    1. These sound to me to be paid agitators who want to stir up what has been a largely peaceful protest so that the government has an excuse to get more aggressive. What does everyone else think?
    2. Should Mubarak stay through the September elections or should he go now? What about the American government position, or lack thereof?
    3. What should we do, if anything?
    4. Is el Baradei the answer or a Trojan horse, as many would say?

    Also, if there are any Egyptian members, your perspective would be appreciated.
    1) Not necessarily PAID agitators but, ones with an agenda.

    2) Mubarak SHOULD stay until elections in september.. Look at iraq and how long it took to get a new govt in place..

    3) you cant just let anyone get thrown into a position like that, noone knows his agenda, all the people see is someone who's NOT Mubarak

    4)STAY THE HECK OUT OF IT - Damn why do we think need to correct whats going on over there... before you answer... NOT EVERY COUNTRY WANTS to be AMERICA, diff values and cultures, America needs to STOP trying to make every country just like itself. You CANT look into a room through a Keyhole and believe you are seeing everything.
  3. #3  
    U.S. Negotiating Mubarak's Severance Package
    FEBRUARY 2, 2011 | ISSUE 47•05

    CAIRO—In an effort to provide monetary compensation to the Egyptian president for three decades of faithful service, U.S. officials opened negotiations with Hosni Mubarak Tuesday, offering him a severance package worth $20 million upon termination of his employment. "We are all thankful for the hard work and long hours President Mubarak put in over the years, and hope our discussions continue smoothly," said senior U.S. negotiator Frank Wisner, who admitted that the final settlement would have to be considerable, as Mubarak's contract with the U.S. was being terminated 15 years early. "Unfortunately, he no longer reflects our needs in the region at this time, but we would like to end our relationship on the right foot. He deserves to retire in comfort." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has also reportedly offered to write Mubarak a letter of recommendation in case he wishes to apply for any dictatorship jobs with U.S. allies in the future.

    U.S. Negotiating Mubarak's Severance Package | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
  4. groovy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    1) Not necessarily PAID agitators but, ones with an agenda.
    Perhaps, but I suspect the core of the pro-Mubarak protesters have financial and/or power-based incentives. That's usually how it works in autocracies. These are the same guys that go out during elections to stir up the faithful and put down the opposition.

    2) Mubarak SHOULD stay until elections in september.. Look at iraq and how long it took to get a new govt in place..

    3) you cant just let anyone get thrown into a position like that, noone knows his agenda, all the people see is someone who's NOT Mubarak
    Certainly, most other countries in the region would be better off if Mubarak remained. He provides order and stability, though at a heavy cost. The people inside Egypt would be better off with an orderly transition but there's a huge question about whether that will happen in September as Mubarak has a track record of speaking about democratic change without actually implementing any. Say, for example, the protests stop and people wait until September. Quietly, opposition leaders start to disappear as the memory or a revolution fades into history. September comes and, surprise, Mubarak is popularly re-elected like he has been for the last five election. Hey, I guess they didn't really want him gone after all, right?

    4)STAY THE HECK OUT OF IT - Damn why do we think need to correct whats going on over there... before you answer... NOT EVERY COUNTRY WANTS to be AMERICA, diff values and cultures, America needs to STOP trying to make every country just like itself. You CANT look into a room through a Keyhole and believe you are seeing everything.
    I don't think the point is making Egypt look like America so much as it is keeping Egypt an ally of America. Clearly, the Mubarak government doesn't look at all like a Western democracy but it's been in America's interest to support it because he's been an ally. That tells us that American foreign policy isn't always about making other countries look like America. However, rightly or wrongly, we give billions to Egypt so we have a vested interest in having a strong policy of keeping them as an ally. If Mubarak falls, there are very influential anti-US groups waiting to fill the void. But, groups like the Ikhwan wouldn't be any better for Egyptians, especially non-Muslims and secular Muslims, and would be much worse for the region. In an ideal world for the US, there would be a popular slightly Center-Left secular, pro-Western candidate. The closest to that appears to be el Baradei, but I personally don't think he's strong enough to stave off the Ikhwan and they would run roughshod over his leadership. Then, just as in Iran, the popular, progressive movement would morph into a religious struggle and finally give way to the next strongest force: a fundamentalist regime.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I don't think the point is making Egypt look like America so much as it is keeping Egypt an ally of America. Clearly, the Mubarak government doesn't look at all like a Western democracy but it's been in America's interest to support it because he's been an ally. That tells us that American foreign policy isn't always about making other countries look like America. However, rightly or wrongly, we give billions to Egypt so we have a vested interest in having a strong policy of keeping them as an ally. If Mubarak falls, there are very influential anti-US groups waiting to fill the void. But, groups like the Ikhwan wouldn't be any better for Egyptians, especially non-Muslims and secular Muslims, and would be much worse for the region. In an ideal world for the US, there would be a popular slightly Center-Left secular, pro-Western candidate. The closest to that appears to be el Baradei, but I personally don't think he's strong enough to stave off the Ikhwan and they would run roughshod over his leadership. Then, just as in Iran, the popular, progressive movement would morph into a religious struggle and finally give way to the next strongest force: a fundamentalist regime.
    America has an agenda, so based on that agenda they get to "Help" define who's best for the Egyptian people???

    Hey i would like a America/Israel/UK Friendly Egypt , but its NOT my place Nor my govt to supplant the current govt based on my Agenda...

    in the transition of saddam hussein, there where outright atrocities being made on the Iraqies, in addition to the suspected terror cells there.. so we stepped in .

    This is NOT the case with Egypt. Granted while they may not have certain freedoms that we take for granted, there is no outright attrocities being made by the govt. Silencing the internet for a week isnt in that category either. it was made to silence the radicals looking to take control of the govt.
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    America has an agenda, so based on that agenda they get to "Help" define who's best for the Egyptian people???
    We don't necessarily get to do anything. But, yes, we paid a dear price for influence and Egypt took it. I don't think it's wrong to use that influence.

    Hey i would like a America/Israel/UK Friendly Egypt , but its NOT my place Nor my govt to supplant the current govt based on my Agenda...
    I'm not talking about supplanting a government but being involved in the transition that looks increasingly likely. No country exists in a vacuum and if we don't exert some kind of influence you can bet Russia, China, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc will be.

    in the transition of saddam hussein, there where outright atrocities being made on the Iraqies, in addition to the suspected terror cells there.. so we stepped in .

    This is NOT the case with Egypt. Granted while they may not have certain freedoms that we take for granted, there is no outright attrocities being made by the govt. Silencing the internet for a week isnt in that category either. it was made to silence the radicals looking to take control of the govt.
    I think Coptic Christians and Mubarak's political opposition would disagree. However, again, I'm not saying we should supplant the government.
  7. #7  
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  8. groovy's Avatar
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       #8  
    ^ Charlie Brown's teacher couldn't have delivered a more uninspiring speech.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    Wa wah wonk wa wha wa wonk?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #10  
    http://m.gizmodo.com/5751162/egyptia...opaganda-texts

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  11. #11  
    to punish egypt for shutting off the internet, us officials announced that they will only be allowed access to myspace until elections are held...
  12. #12  
    What???
    Isn't this whole Egypt chaos a covert CIA operation to compensate el Baradei for his assistance to the US in other matters?
  13. #13  
    not a chance.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    not a chance.
    Did you come up with that answer all by yourself? Or did you get it by way of manchurization?
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak just stepped down and relinquished control to the Egyptian military, 22 years to the day after the day the Iranians celebrate as "Islamic Revolution's Victory Day", February 11, 1979.

    Just saying...
  16. #16  
    Not sure there is a right answer to any of this, as we will only know if this is good or bad at some point in the future. I personally think this is bad for Israel and I believe this could be the beginning of something very bad in the world. I hope I am sooooooo wrong.
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