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  1. #161  
    +1 clemgrad85

    clem, thanks for summing up my thoughts! It's funny how some think the government is a charitable organization, yet government regulators usually shut down any charitable organization that operates as ineffectively as the government usually does.
    I see pandas.
  2. #162  
    I can sympathize with you conservatives feeling a bit disenfranchised and frustrated. I felt the same way when Bush was in charge.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I can sympathize with you conservatives feeling a bit disenfranchised and frustrated. I felt the same way when Bush was in charge.
    Especially with Obama's increasing popularity. Must be really irritating.
  4. #164  
    Popularity is going up as he moves away from the extreme left. Doesn't irritate me at all.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    First, if, for the next ten years, there was not a single political ad featuring any gun imagery the Republicans would still get blamed for acts of gun violence. I hope Scarborough is not stupid enough to think differently.
    Just out of curiosity, what atrocity or violence do we blame on this?

  6. #166  
    Or this?

    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 01/20/2011 at 09:36 PM.
  7. #167  
    Or this commercial where a democrat shoot a gun at a bill he opposes. This must have been what caused that college student in his state to walk around campus shooting other students.

  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Especially with Obama's increasing popularity. Must be really irritating.
    Natural for a President's ratings to move up when something like AZ occurs and the Prez gets to act all kumbayah like. Once this fake "togetherness" wares off, and people see our economy still in the dumper because obama and his merry men have no clue what they are doing, his poll numbers will likely drop. Of course, as Cantafordit also pointed out, he suddenly is backing away from the far left.....how convenient. I even heard obama suddenly mention that maybe....well maybe there are some things in the recent health insurance legislation that could be fixed....huh....obama don't seem quite so tough when he doesn't have that majority rule in the House anymore. He's not holding that chin of his up quite so high like he did a couple of months ago.
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I can sympathize with you conservatives feeling a bit disenfranchised and frustrated. I felt the same way when Bush was in charge.
    I'm not sure what you're comparing.
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Or this commercial where a democrat shoot a gun at a bill he opposes. This must have been what caused that college student in his state to walk around campus shooting other students.

    Try and follow, please. This ad has only been addressed in this thread about ten times. It's a very bad image, no matter what party.

    And since the shootings took place three years before the ad, I think your causal hypothesis is badly flawed. But nice try.
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    He's not holding that chin of his up quite so high like he did a couple of months ago.
    Really? Did you sleep through the end of the last session of congress? His popularity is higher than it's been in a very long time, he got just about everything he wanted to get...but you think he's failing. I think his chin is just about right where it should be...given he has had a very successful two years.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Really? Did you sleep through the end of the last session of congress? His popularity is higher than it's been in a very long time, he got just about everything he wanted to get...but you think he's failing. I think his chin is just about right where it should be...given he has had a very successful two years.
    I didn't quite get the media attention regarding how well he did in the lame duck, seeing how the democrats still controlled both Houses. Oh geez, you mean the democrat obama got the democratic controlled House and Senate to do what he wanted? Oh wow...that is amazing....how did he do that? I wonder how he would have done if the lame duck votes were held now? Perhaps the 2 years were successful from a liberal's view point, but not very successful from most conservatives. I mean get serious, if obama had raised the tax bracket on those making over $250k to 75%, you would have said it was successful.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Perhaps the 2 years were successful from a liberal's view point, but not very successful from most conservatives.

    I think you meant successful from the independent's point of view as well.

    Such ambivalence tinged with optimism comes as Mr. Obama continues what appears to be a successful repositioning in the political center. Forty percent of Americans now see him as a moderate, up 10 percentage points from a year ago. The number calling him "very liberal" has declined from 33% in January 2010 to 27% now. Forty-four percent of independents now call the president a moderate, up from 28% a year ago.
    Wall Street Jounal Poll
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I think you meant successful from the independent's point of view as well.
    We will see....we all knew the only way he had any chance of getting re-elected (dang that's a scary thought) was to stop pushing his far left liberal agenda and try and move to the center. It is far too early to judge that. Also, I think people might end up being more comfortable with obama now that he doesn't have the House rubber stamping his socialistic agenda. There are many issues out there right now that could completely blow him up. Ummm, for the record, by saying "blow him up", I am not meaning that I nor anyone else should literally blow him up. I know you take everything literally, so again, I do not want anyone blowing him up....okay?


    Wall Street Jounal Poll[/QUOTE]

    I wish I could take the time to look through all your posts and see how you reject articles that come from the WSJ. You have laughed at me in the past when I posted anything from the WSJ. Funny....I guess the WSJ does have accurate info if it agrees with you? LOL

    From the article you seem so proud of: Surges in presidential popularity are common after a galvanizing national tragedy, said Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster who co-directs the Journal/NBC News poll with Democrat Peter Hart. Bill Clinton saw a four-point jump after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. George W. Bush saw a surge after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

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  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I'm not sure what you're comparing.
    you don't understand the point of my post? No problem, I will elaborate

    I read over all this brouhaha in yesterdays posts about "having no patience for liberals", and when dealing with them its "time for attack mode", you saying that liberals think that conservatives are either evil or mentally deranged, and Michael chiming in saying liberals are mental cases. Then the topic changed to liberals just being misguided and having some sort of "syndrome".

    I was wondering how to react, being a liberal, are you calling me a mental case, or I have a syndrome, or should I expect that anytime I try to say something you will have no patience to respond, only go into "attack mode' on me? Are you suggesting that I must think the three of you as either evil or mentally deranged? This is not some type of sarcasm with smily laughy emoticons, this is just said matter of fact, at least it seemed that way to me. Prince Albert sure seemed to take it as a serious statement because he agreed with it too.

    So anyway, after all of this name calling and attributing all this hatred against conservatives to all liberals like me, I got to thinking, why are they saying this? Certainly not because its true. I can't change the way you think about me, if you want to believe I am a mental case its up to you to decide. But as for me, I certainly do not think conservatives are evil or deranged. I was kind of surprised because I've seen you try to be even handed, and both you and Michael are moderators here and supposed to be fair minded about things.

    The truth of the matter is that I am a liberal and I don't think that conservatives are mental or evil. Neither, you get it? Truth is is, I like conservatives, and have a lot of conservative friends. In fact, on this forum, my best buddy is Woof, who is just as conservative as any of you if not more, both fiscal and social. But he's a fair person, and while he says what he thinks, he does not degrade other people, or if he does, he apologizes about it. We've had some great discussions about many issues, and at the end of the day, there was a lot of respect we had for each other even though we completely disagreed on most things.

    A couple years back, because he says what he thinks, Woof got banned from here for a few months, and as a protest, I boycotted treocentral too for the entire time, only after I raised a stink about his banning to the mods, unfortunately to no avail. Woof does not post much anymore, but I always look forward to hearing what he has to say.

    Long story short, I decided not to take any of the derogatory things you all were saying personally. And even though I'm sure I will be told it was just sarcasm, and I'm stupid for not getting it, there's really no indication to me that it was any kind of joke.

    So instead, I just tried to put myself into your shoes and tried to understand your points of view. I figured mainly you guys weren't that bitter and mean spirited after all but were just frustrated and disenfranchised with the current administration, and just blowing off steam.

    And I could relate because I sure felt quite frustrated and disenfranchised with the Bush administration when it was in power and I blew off steam too. But in the end, I really never came to the realization that the other side was evil or deranged. I think that we need to respect each other more on this forum, and the mods needs to be at the forefront of this.

    end of story.
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    you don't understand the point of my post? No problem, I will elaborate

    I read over all this brouhaha in yesterdays posts about "having no patience for liberals", and when dealing with them its "time for attack mode", you saying that liberals think that conservatives are either evil or mentally deranged, and Michael chiming in saying liberals are mental cases. Then the topic changed to liberals just being misguided and having some sort of "syndrome".

    I was wondering how to react, being a liberal, are you calling me a mental case, or I have a syndrome, or should I expect that anytime I try to say something you will have no patience to respond, only go into "attack mode' on me? Are you suggesting that I must think the three of you as either evil or mentally deranged? This is not some type of sarcasm with smily laughy emoticons, this is just said matter of fact, at least it seemed that way to me. Prince Albert sure seemed to take it as a serious statement because he agreed with it too.

    So anyway, after all of this name calling and attributing all this hatred against conservatives to all liberals like me, I got to thinking, why are they saying this? Certainly not because its true. I can't change the way you think about me, if you want to believe I am a mental case its up to you to decide. But as for me, I certainly do not think conservatives are evil or deranged. I was kind of surprised because I've seen you try to be even handed, and both you and Michael are moderators here and supposed to be fair minded about things.

    The truth of the matter is that I am a liberal and I don't think that conservatives are mental or evil. Neither, you get it? Truth is is, I like conservatives, and have a lot of conservative friends. In fact, on this forum, my best buddy is Woof, who is just as conservative as any of you if not more, both fiscal and social. But he's a fair person, and while he says what he thinks, he does not degrade other people, or if he does, he apologizes about it. We've had some great discussions about many issues, and at the end of the day, there was a lot of respect we had for each other even though we completely disagreed on most things.

    A couple years back, because he says what he thinks, Woof got banned from here for a few months, and as a protest, I boycotted treocentral too for the entire time, only after I raised a stink about his banning to the mods, unfortunately to no avail. Woof does not post much anymore, but I always look forward to hearing what he has to say.

    Long story short, I decided not to take any of the derogatory things you all were saying personally. And even though I'm sure I will be told it was just sarcasm, and I'm stupid for not getting it, there's really no indication to me that it was any kind of joke.

    So instead, I just tried to put myself into your shoes and tried to understand your points of view. I figured mainly you guys weren't that bitter and mean spirited after all but were just frustrated and disenfranchised with the current administration, and just blowing off steam.

    And I could relate because I sure felt quite frustrated and disenfranchised with the Bush administration when it was in power and I blew off steam too. But in the end, I really never came to the realization that the other side was evil or deranged. I think that we need to respect each other more on this forum, and the mods needs to be at the forefront of this.

    end of story.
    Well, don't blame Groovy and Micael for my comments. I think many of your comments above were directed at me. I certainly don't speak for them. If you read my post, the first thing I said was that "Liberals aren't evil". Now, I did go on and say they are misguided. I stand by that term, as from the dictionary it means "wrong in opinion or judgement, but well-meaning; poorly conceived or thought out." Would you not also say the same about conservatives? If you disagree with my opinions, don't you think I am wrong in opinion or judgement? You might not even think I am "well-meaning", but I do think that most liberals are. I actually don't find that comment as mean spirited.

    As for the "syndrome" comment, that was also from me. I used that in what I call the "oprah syndrome". In my opinion, oprah is so guilty about how much she has, that she feels compelled to do shows on how good she is. There are countless examples of her doing this. Oprah is a great business woman and should be an inspiration to anyone who is sitting there right now with nothing. But, to me, she always seems to come across as a bit guilty for what she has. I happen to believe that many successful liberals suffer this same syndrome.....they are soooo guilty for what they have, that they push to have the government take more from others. As I said before, why don't all you liberals just pay 5% more this year when you file your taxes? You can do that....just pay more....put your money where your mouth is. You don't have to agree with me on this...and in fact....might call me misguided on this....you have that right just as I have the right to think that.

    Oh, and yes, I did say I had no patience for liberals. Sorry...but I don't. I just don't understand how liberals think and to me it is frustrating. It's just a fundamental difference on how our brains are wired, I guess, and yes, perhaps life events mold these views. My parents are not wealthy, but they brought me up to think that if you work hard and earn a good living, it is your money, not the government's money to hand out to those they feel are deserving of it. Do I give to charities to help people? Yes, but it is for those that I feel moved to give to. Perhaps you think that is misguided? So, if you think that those that succeed should pay 50 or 60% of their earnings to the government, or take 50% of one's estate at death, then I just can't agree with that and I see no way to negotiate that....therefore....I say that is attack mode.

    I honestly don't hang out with liberals. My circle of friends are people that think the same way I do....they honestly do.....and I guess that is why I don't let certain liberal's comments in here bother me because I know I'm not alone in my thinkings. So, while I won't apologize for my comments, I am sorry that you interpreted my comments as mean spirited. And for the record, if you are going to curtail Groovy and Micael in here, you might also add daThomas to that list. Oh but wait, you agree with him, right? So I guess he can continue to promote his liberal views and attack Conservatives?
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  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I honestly don't hang out with liberals. My circle of friends are people that think the same way I do....they honestly do.....and I guess that is why I don't let certain liberal's comments in here bother me because I know I'm not alone in my thinkings. So, while I won't apologize for my comments, I am sorry that you interpreted my comments as mean spirited.
    Not looking for an apology, and I appreciate your honesty for saying what's on your mind. I only want to suggest that if you spent some time trying to understand liberals, they might turn out to be not as bad as you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    you might also add daThomas to that list. Oh but wait, you agree with him, right? So I guess he can continue to promote his liberal views and attack Conservatives?
    I'm not any happier if DaThomas insults a whole group of people, than if a conservative does it.

    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And for the record, if you are going to curtail Groovy and Micael in here,
    I appreciate your loyalty in sticking up for your friends, but you are wrong to think I am trying to curtail anyone here. If I offer any minor suggestions for improvement, it doesn't mean I don't also appreciate all the effort that the mods do to make treocentral a great website.
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    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    you don't understand the point of my post? No problem, I will elaborate

    I read over all this brouhaha in yesterdays posts about "having no patience for liberals", and when dealing with them its "time for attack mode", you saying that liberals think that conservatives are either evil or mentally deranged, and Michael chiming in saying liberals are mental cases. Then the topic changed to liberals just being misguided and having some sort of "syndrome".
    Okay, first let me say that I apologize if you took anything I said as a personal attack. Note that I did say "large number of liberals" as opposed to "liberals". Having many liberal friends, I believe this is true. Of course, they wouldn't claim that I am evil, because they know me. But get them started on a particular Republican politician, or Republican positions and the flood gates open. This seems to me to be the disconnect that many people face when they have a personal relationship with someone who has political views they thoroughly disdain. Mr. Cohen, for example, probably dines daily with the very people he claimed to be using Third Reich tactics. But I digress. Suffice to say that I know, and know of many people who would have no problems saying Conservative leaders and Conservatism as a political movement is evil, and so I believe what I said to be true. I was not referring to your views in particular.

    Regarding thinking Conservatism is a mental disorder, heck, there are books and studies about it. That's not just me making stuff up. Of course, most academics would stop short of calling it a mental disorder--just a "personality type" that lacks ability to integrate multiple perspectives and is categorized by a high degree of submission to tradition, authority, and social norms, and aggression towards outsiders. Patronizing, you think?

    I was wondering how to react, being a liberal, are you calling me a mental case, or I have a syndrome, or should I expect that anytime I try to say something you will have no patience to respond, only go into "attack mode' on me?
    Are you talking about me when you say "you"? Or the collective conservative voice on in the forum? I never claimed to think either of those things. I can't speak for anyone else.

    Are you suggesting that I must think the three of you as either evil or mentally deranged? This is not some type of sarcasm with smily laughy emoticons, this is just said matter of fact, at least it seemed that way to me. Prince Albert sure seemed to take it as a serious statement because he agreed with it too.
    I addressed this above but let me ask you this, knowing plenty of liberals as I'm sure you do, do you disagree with my assessment of many--not all--liberals? Do you not see a sort of visceral reaction when people talk about Republicans that can only be rivaled by the way those same people talk about, say, slum lords or cold blooded criminals?

    So anyway, after all of this name calling and attributing all this hatred against conservatives to all liberals like me, I got to thinking, why are they saying this?
    As I said, I certainly wasn't imputing that view to all liberals and even said so. To the extent that I painted with a wider brush than was appropriate, I apologize.

    Long story short, I decided not to take any of the derogatory things you all were saying personally.
    I'm glad because it certainly wasn't intended that way. Indeed, I hadn't even been dialoging with you at the point which that was written so I'm a little puzzled as to why you would have taken it personally.

    So instead, I just tried to put myself into your shoes and tried to understand your points of view. I figured mainly you guys weren't that bitter and mean spirited after all but were just frustrated and disenfranchised with the current administration, and just blowing off steam.
    You can say that I'm frustrated with the lack of desire to try to understand other perspectives. That was the whole thrust of my post but, evidently, it didn't come across that way.
    Last edited by groovy; 01/23/2011 at 03:20 AM.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Having many liberal friends, I believe this is true. Of course, they wouldn't claim that I am evil, because they know me. But get them started on a particular Republican politician, or Republican positions and the flood gates open. This seems to me to be the disconnect that many people face when they have a personal relationship with someone who has political views they thoroughly disdain. Mr. Cohen, for example, probably dines daily with the very people he claimed to be using Third Reich tactics. But I digress. Suffice to say that I know, and know of many people who would have no problems saying Conservative leaders and Conservatism as a political movement is evil, and so I believe what I said to be true. I was not referring to your views in particular.
    Recent events have had me thinking about these issues. As I am likely older than any of you, maybe my opinions are based on a more longitudinal perspective. Recent popular discussions about Kennedy's inauguration speech, and many recent discussions about Reagan's political philosophy have served to just make me more cynical about what you call "conservatives". I "hated" Reagan before he was president. Many of my generation did (as per Joan Baez's comment during Woodstock when she called him "Ronald Ray-gun"). As president, I thought he was largely ineffectual and really provided little in the way of leadership. But I do believe strongly that he would never have supported the Tea Party. His history of accomplishments would be rejected by most current "conservatives"...he signed the most liberal pro-abortion bill of its time, he raised taxes as well as cut them when appropriate, he negotiated with the Soviets, he gave amnesty to illegals...and given his general personality, I have no doubt he would have rejected harsh rhetoric from all sides. The general slide of the country to the right has been real and reflects, in large part, the "Southern strategy" of convincing many lower income people of voting against their own best interests (IMHO). And the poor, who have no voting block whatsoever, cannot expect any help from either party at this point in time, because they are blamed for being poor and it's politically unpopular to give a damn about them. That is in direct opposition to what I've been doing all my adult life, and I think it's wrong-headed and unfair, because most people who hold these opinions have never spent any time with poor people, have never been in their homes, have never seen them struggle to raise their families, or to get health care.
    Regardless of what I think, recent events have convinced me that harsh rhetoric is an absurd way to attempt to move forward on either side. Even giving my strongly held beliefs, I have never described anyone or any party as "evil". The fact is simple: the only way to "save our country" is to work together, but polarization has made that essentially impossible. I am glad to see Obama "move toward the center" but I doubt that will work with the extreme rightward move of the congress, so I really don't see any improvement in our future until some attitudes change on both sides. The refusal of Boehner to even use the word "compromise" is just one example. It remains to be seen if the republicans are going to continue playing to their base or are going to attempt to actually get something done....and the same goes for the democratic base. As for me, I intend to avoid arguing with people who are not willing to accept the idea that compromise is a good thing. I may not always stick to that, but I intend to try. There's something to be said for the high road and I hope I can approach it.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    You can say that I'm frustrated with the lack of desire to try to understand other perspectives.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I really don't see any improvement in our future until some attitudes change on both sides.
    totally agree with you both on this
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