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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I don't know what this dudes political leanings are one way or another, nor do I care. But, if trying to label him with a specific party is just speculation, is it not also speculation to assume that a party had no influence on him? We just don't know yet and he has not been talking.

    Also, everyone is talking how the "media" has labeled him a right wing nut case. What about the reports on FOX News calling him a "weed smoking, liberal, socialist?"
    actually, that was a statement from one of his acquaintances, and reported by Fox. Like all the rest though, unsubstantiated. Besides, smoking pot rarely drives people to mass murder, imho. It mostly just drives them from the couch to the cupboard for dingdongs or cheetos and back again.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm not really sure how to fix, but I'll throw something out and see how it flies... maybe there's a list that people who are questionable get put on, and must pass psychological tests once flagged before they purchase a firearm? What scares me is that a tool like that could allow people to be flagged for political and not mental risk reasons.
    Exactly. If you proposed something like that, I would support it...and you'd have the NRA in your shorts, along with 95% of conservatives. At some point the risk to society overcomes the individual's rights. But can you imagine the rhetoric about big government control of people's rights? Rush would disown you.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Exactly. If you proposed something like that, I would support it...and you'd have the NRA in your shorts, along with 95% of conservatives. At some point the risk to society overcomes the individual's rights. But can you imagine the rhetoric about big government control of people's rights? Rush would disown you.
    I dunno, I think it's reasonable if someone has been displaying mental illness to take a second look before handing him a loaded weapon, or a drivers license for that matter.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Sorry....didn't mean to "dis" you. I believe you are saying I didn't respond to this: "Are you saying you approve of "second amendment remedies" being part of political debates? Do you really think the rhetoric about targets and taking people out is a good thing? Words do matter."

    What I believe is that sane people understand when someone might say "we will kill this guy in the election", that it doesn't mean literally go out and kill the guy. It means they will gather far more votes in the election than the other guy. Good grief. I mean what happened to people using common sense? And I don't see you going after democrats saying words or doing actions that you find so offensive being used by Republicans. Care to respond to the ad I posted by the democrat Senator? Is that ad ok with you?
    I'll just refer you to the first post I made. You are welcome to think that both sides have done this equally. I have no intention of arguing with you about it, other than to say I think you may be wrong.

    I didn't say it was right for any group, did I? I would like to see those on either side who used extreme violent imagery to immediately apologize for their ignorance. I'll leave it to you to figure out who those people might be.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Since he isn't talking, the only reports on the guy are from people who knew him or what he wrote. If it quacks and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Are you also saying the military is lying that he failed a drug test? I would assume you also would be someone who thinks we should call him the "alleged" shooter, right?
    And what this nut wrote had nothing to do with any particular party. As far as the drug test, when did I say it was a lie? Since when is pot/drug use the sole vice of democrats?

    It is good to see that you are consistent in counteracting assumptions with more assumptions. The sad part is that you think your assumptions are facts...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by jjeffcoat View Post
    Actually they were not cross-hairs on Palin's map. That is the symbol for a surveyor's mark or "Principal Point" on a map.

    This link if from the U.S. Geological Survey, look on the second page, right hand column a little over half way down:

    http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/bookle...mapsymbols.pdf
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    actually, that was a statement from one of his acquaintances, and reported by Fox.
    And FOX has been known to outright lie so I would take that with a grain of salt. This "friend" has only gone to FOX for an interview? Yeah, right...

    Like all the rest though, unsubstantiated. Besides, smoking pot rarely drives people to mass murder, imho. It mostly just drives them from the couch to the cupboard for dingdongs or cheetos and back again.
    No, pot leads to naps, bad ideas and Dorrito abuse...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #68  
    There is no evidence that any of these rhetorical terms caused this incident. The guy was a whack job. 200 years from now there will still be whack jobs doing horrendous things like this. It's natural to try and figure out why, and politically it's an opportunity to pounce on the opposition, but there has been no connection made yet.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And FOX has been known to outright lie so I would take that with a grain of salt. This "friend" has only gone to FOX for an interview? Yeah, right...

    No, pot leads to naps, bad ideas and Dorrito abuse...
    I know that you can't resist the urge to slam foxnews, but no, it was Caitie Parker - a classmate of the shooter, who described him as a "pot-smoking liberal". It's been widely reported in blogs and papers. If you heard it on Fox, it was something they repeated. They didn't "break it".
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I don't know what this dudes political leanings are one way or another, nor do I care. But, if trying to label him with a specific party is just speculation, is it not also speculation to assume that a party had no influence on him? We just don't know yet and he has not been talking.
    Yes, perhaps, but what does it mean? I mean, what would we do differently knowing that information? Let's just say it comes out that he was radically influenced by the movie The Matrix. Then what? Do we stop making those movies? Or if he was influenced by Marylin Manson. Do we put a muzzle on his ugly mug? What if, as is more likely the case, he was influenced by voices in his head that created a focus for his obsession?

    It might be an interesting factoid but then what?
  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And FOX has been known to outright lie so I would take that with a grain of salt. This "friend" has only gone to FOX for an interview? Yeah, right...
    I hope you aren't holding that rule just to Fox News.

    No, pot leads to naps, bad ideas and Dorrito abuse...
    Actually, several studies show an increase likelihood of developing schizophrenia with heavy marijuana usage. More importantly here is that marijuana can severely worsen delusions, paranoia, and psychotic episodes in people who already have schizophrenia.
  12. #72  
    Why are we still arguing liberals vs. conservatives? What I've heard about this guy is that he was very disturbed, scared the h*ll out of his classmates, and had anarchist views. That doesn't say left or right to me.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I know that you can't resist the urge to slam foxnews, but no, it was Caitie Parker - a classmate of the shooter, who described him as a "pot-smoking liberal". It's been widely reported in blogs and papers. If you heard it on Fox, it was something they repeated. They didn't "break it".
    LOL So the "leftwing media" is jumping to conclusions but FOX, who has been proven to outright lie (see ACORN scandal) is just "repeating" things...

    Stay classy!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Yes, perhaps, but what does it mean? I mean, what would we do differently knowing that information? Let's just say it comes out that he was radically influenced by the movie The Matrix. Then what? Do we stop making those movies? Or if he was influenced by Marylin Manson. Do we put a muzzle on his ugly mug? What if, as is more likely the case, he was influenced by voices in his head that created a focus for his obsession?

    It might be an interesting factoid but then what?
    Sorry, I don't hold movies and music to the same standards as politicians. A public figure telling people to exercise their 2nd amendment rights if an election does not go the way they want is no where near the same level as a rap song telling a fictitious story.

    Is the Matrix the same thing as a politician telling it's constituents to hold a rally, and come fully armed?

    How about Rush Limbaugh: I tell people dont kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus living fossils so we will never forget what these people stood for. Is that the same as a Marylin Manson song?

    I doubt this nut was acting on what many in the GOP have been saying, but it would not be too far fetched if he was. If some one keeps yelling fire in a crowded theater, you shouldn't be surprised if a nut actually runs in with an extinguisher...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  15. #75  
    I don't believe that any specific political ideology directly influenced this sick individual. He was fixated on her. "At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"
    Loughner was angry about her response - she read the question and had nothing to say."
    Arizona Shooting Suspect Jared Loughner's Nihilism Rose With Isolation
    The point is that once again, a mentally ill person "fell through the cracks" despite repeated reports to law enforcement.
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Sorry, I don't hold movies and music to the same standards as politicians.
    Why not? They're as or more influential depending on the person.

    A public figure telling people to exercise their 2nd amendment rights if an election does not go the way they want is no where near the same level as a rap song telling a fictitious story.
    When did that happen?

    Is the Matrix the same thing as a politician telling it's constituents to hold a rally, and come fully armed?
    Armed with what? Can you be more specific here?

    How about Rush Limbaugh: “I tell people don’t kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus — living fossils — so we will never forget what these people stood for.” Is that the same as a Marylin Manson song?
    Again, the Manson song will hold much more influence if you're a huge Manson fan. Not many of those guys are Rush fans.

    I doubt this nut was acting on what many in the GOP have been saying, but it would not be too far fetched if he was. If some one keeps yelling fire in a crowded theater, you shouldn't be surprised if a nut actually runs in with an extinguisher...
    Does that include calling people to take up pitchforks? Or to get in people's faces? Or to bring a gun, if the other guy brought a knife? Democrats live in a big glass house here. Again, in my opinion this is politics. Should the tone of political rhetoric change? Yes. Will it? No. It's an exceedingly small minority that confuses metaphor and hyperbole with marching orders to take out the opposition. The world won't change for them.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Sorry, I don't hold movies and music to the same standards as politicians. A public figure telling people to exercise their 2nd amendment rights if an election does not go the way they want is no where near the same level as a rap song telling a fictitious story.
    I don't listen to either. Grand Theft Auto is the only source of truth.

    ... and by the way, u have a very violent signature.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I doubt this nut was acting on what many in the GOP have been saying, but it would not be too far fetched if he was.
    This is what I just hate. This is the "easy way out" everyone in the media has been using. "I didn't say it was Sarah Palin's fault, but she should really shut up and go back to Alaska because it easily could've been her fault." I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to put a little more mental effort into it if you want to pin the blame on anyone.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Why not? They're as or more influential depending on the person.
    So you have a problem with deciphering fact from fiction as well?

    When did that happen?
    WOW you must live under a rock...

    "I hope that's not where we're going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."
    ~Sharon Angle , former Senate candidate for (Guess where!!!) Nevada.

    Armed with what? Can you be more specific here?
    Again, you live under a rock...

    News snippet: "PHOENIX (again, Arizona?) — About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president."

    ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
    —Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden

    Again, the Manson song will hold much more influence if you're a huge Manson fan. Not many of those guys are Rush fans.
    Manson fans know that his songs are works of fiction and are for entertainment. Rush, Hannity and Beck and the like, put themselves out as factual and for information.

    ''I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. ... No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out.''
    —Glenn Beck, May 17, 2005

    “Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus--living fossils--so we we'll never forget what these people stood for."

    Look at O'Reilly and the whole Dr Tiller murder. If these politicians and pundits keep talking like this, some nut is going to act on it. They can get their points across without resorting to all of this sensationalism and violent rhetoric. We all do it here in this web forum. Why can't they do the same?
    Last edited by Kenanator; 01/12/2011 at 11:28 AM.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  20. groovy's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So you have a problem with deciphering fact from fiction as well?
    Really, Ken? Really? This whole debate, this very thread, was started because of the actions of an individual who can't decipher fact from fiction. You yourself even said, "If some one keeps yelling fire in a crowded theater, you shouldn't be surprised if a nut actually runs in with an extinguisher..." So you know what the context is. Can we try to stay on topic? Or should I interpret from that response that there was a lack of a better response?


    WOW you must live under a rock...

    "I hope that's not where we're going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."
    ~Sharon Angle , former Senate candidate for (Guess where!!!) Nevada.
    Of course I'm familiar with the quote. The way you used it made me think you're not. Did you hear Angle advocate those remedies as you said? Or did she say she was afraid people were thinking in those terms?

    Again, you live under a rock...

    News snippet: "PHOENIX (again, Arizona?) — About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president."

    ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
    —Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden
    I must have missed the part where he said anything about coming "armed". You also missed a lot about that exchange, including the part where he said, "However, it is not the first option." Do you disagree with this statement?

    Manson fans know that his songs are works of fiction and are for entertainment. Rush, Hannity and Beck and the like, put themselves out as factual and for information.
    Again, you're not comparing apples with apples, Ken. Manson's mentally stable fans know his songs are fictional. Rush and Beck's mentally stable fans know when they joking and when they're trying to give factual information.

    Second, you stated, "Sorry, I don't hold movies and music to the same standards as politicians." But now you're lumping in Beck and Rush with the politicians. They are not elected officials, they are commentators and entertainers. Sorry, Ken, you're all over the board here and it just seems to me like you just want to create the possibility of a link between Loughner and only Right Wing rhetoric--ignoring all of the rhetoric coming from your own wing. And ignoring that there is currently no link between Loughner's actions and the rhetoric of any politician, Left or Right.
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