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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    No you can't help me down.....YOU are part of the very group who were likely drooling that there could be some connection to the Tea Party folks, or maybe if this could only be a supporter of Palin, or some other connection a liberal like you would want to see. Someone like you is probably disappointed that this was just a very, very, very sick individual and so now you can't get up on your high horse and point fingers at the evil right. Even in your comment you still act as if this individual was incited by some rhetoric....still hoping that there can be a connection.....when there is no evidence....NONE....that connects him to anything other than just a really messed up mind. Good grief....same old daThomas. At least you're consistent.
    And you're simply being insulting and I don't appreciate it.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, (and not surprisingly) at this point in time you have no idea if what you said is true or not, right? How do you know what motivated a mentally ill person to respond in this way?

    Are you saying you approve of "second amendment remedies" being part of political debates? Do you really think the rhetoric about targets and taking people out is a good thing? Words do matter.
    Palin's group put cross-hairs and DailyKoz put bull's eyes on her district. If it's wrong for one group, it's wrong for all. Unfortunately, you and I and every PRPRPR $firm$ $in$ $the$ $country$ $knows$ $that$ $reasoned$ $and$ $tempered$ $speech$ $are$ $not$ $great$ $tools$ $for$ $wrangling$ $support$. $Diagrams$ $and$ $sound$-$bytes$ $are$.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Palin's group put cross-hairs and DailyKoz put bull's eyes on her district. If it's wrong for one group, it's wrong for all. Unfortunately, you and I and every PRPRPR $firm$ $in$ $the$ $country$ $knows$ $that$ $reasoned$ $and$ $tempered$ $speech$ $are$ $not$ $great$ $tools$ $for$ $wrangling$ $support$. $Diagrams$ $and$ $sound$-$bytes$ $are$.
    I didn't say it was right for any group, did I? I would like to see those on either side who used extreme violent imagery to immediately apologize for their ignorance. I'll leave it to you to figure out who those people might be.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, (and not surprisingly) at this point in time you have no idea if what you said is true or not, right? How do you know what motivated a mentally ill person to respond in this way?

    Are you saying you approve of "second amendment remedies" being part of political debates? Do you really think the rhetoric about targets and taking people out is a good thing? Words do matter.
    Quotes from people who knew him say he was really not interested in politics. In his writings that have been read thus far, they don't seem to find any connection to any Conservative like you are hoping for. But keep hoping davidra, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll find that he visited Palin's website one time so you can pin this all on the right. Well, like your likely hero rahm emanuel once said, "You never let a serious crisis go to waste." So this is typical of liberals.....just think how many liberals in the media (which is basically every news source other than Fox) are trying to find something to connect this nut to the right. I bet they are in a frenzy looking, lol.
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I didn't say it was right for any group, did I? I would like to see those on either side who used extreme violent imagery to immediately apologize for their ignorance. I'll leave it to you to figure out who those people might be.
    It wasn't ignorance on either side; it was expedience. Political discourse is, and has for the entire history of our country been, harsh and divisive. Do you think that needs to change because of what a guy with a mental illness might be prompted to do?
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    It wasn't ignorance on either side; it was expedience. Political discourse is, and has for the entire history of our country been, harsh and divisive. Do you think that needs to change because of what a guy with a mental illness might be prompted to do?
    So you think there is no line to be drawn, ever? Should a candidate call for their opponent's assassination? Do you really not think it makes a difference what people say?
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So you think there is no line to be drawn, ever? Should a candidate call for their opponent's assassination? Do you really not think it makes a difference what people say?
    Are those two things analogous? I don't think so. Either way, it's a moot point because the only candidate who would do something so foolish is the candidate who wants to lose (and get an unpleasant visit from the Secret Service).
    Last edited by groovy; 01/10/2011 at 07:01 PM.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Are those two things analogous? I don't think so. Either way, it's a moot point because the only candidate who would do something so foolish is the candidate who wants to lose.
    Sharon Angle did lose. At the end of her "second amendment remedies" comment, she stated that they needed to "take Harry Reid out". Interpret that however you want...but she almost won. I'll say it again. Words matter.
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sharon Angle did lose. At the end of her "second amendment remedies" comment, she stated that they needed to "take Harry Reid out". Interpret that however you want...but she almost won. I'll say it again. Words matter.
    I absolutely agree, words matter. That's why I always try to get quotes correct as opposed to quoting hearsay. Trying to make a stupid comment appear more inflammatory than it was by misquoting it is falling into the same trap.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sharon Angle did lose. At the end of her "second amendment remedies" comment, she stated that they needed to "take Harry Reid out". Interpret that however you want...but she almost won. I'll say it again. Words matter.
    "I'll take dead aim at the Cap and Trade bill." Another video of a looney right wing conservative toting a gun? Nope, just the democrat candidate for Senate from WV (who won), with a political ad where he carries a gun and talks about "taking on Washington and this administration." Now, since you're a democrat I guess you hear his ad and everything is okay...but if it was a Conservative ad, oh geeez, I guess you would interpret the ad as him wanting to shoot obama, right?


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    Last edited by groovy; 01/10/2011 at 07:42 PM.
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  11. #31  
    In such a tragedy, human beings always look for a logical answer for the illogical. Blaming the vitriol in our political discourse is a fun place to start, or even blaming the healthcare system for not recognizing his "illness" before it happened.

    All the while we ignore the fact that there are evil people in the world and that sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent the tragedy.

    Wouldn't it be great to turn back time and prevent such things? Sometime you can do everything right and still lose.

    I wish we could all offer our condolences to the families of those whose lives have been forever changed and leave it at that.
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  12. #32  
    I did want to make a secondary remark, it really is up to us as individuals to do better and be better and be more tolerant of differing opinions, but it is not ok to blame differing opinions for this cowardly act.
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And you're simply being insulting and I don't appreciate it.
    Yup....the truth hurts.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yup....the truth hurts.
    I don't believe you and the truth were ever acquainted.

    I also made my opinion on this issue perfectly clear HERE.
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I don't see that as politicizing it, other than pointing out not stigmatizing mental illness and providing resources to care address and care for the chronically mentally ill can help prevent horrible things like this from happening.
    I hear you. And this may be a real issue. But in this particular case, and from what I'm hearing in the media, it may be more an issue of certain agencies either failing to recognize or put things together about this guy's illness; and not ignoring him because of some stigma.

    I'm not understanding what you mean by stigmatizing, with regards to those agencies that are supposed to be focused on helping individuals such as this, or in getting them off of the street to protect them from themselves and to protect others. Are you saying that they ignored evidence? I'm thinking this may be more about dissemination and coordination of information about this guy. Did his school inform authorities, or just ask him to leave and not return without a psych eval?

    Hrm, on a side note, what was that movie with tom cruise that put things together about people based on patterns and projected probabilities of future crimes? Minority report?
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    #36  
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Now, since you're a democrat I guess you hear his ad and everything is okay...but if it was a Conservative ad, oh geeez, I guess you would interpret the ad as him wanting to shoot obama, right?
    I can understand conservatives taking offense at being blamed for the actions of an extremist murderer. Perhaps you could find some common ground by sharing your feelings with a Muslim.
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I can understand conservatives taking offense at being blamed for the actions of an extremist murderer. Perhaps you could find some common ground by sharing your feelings with a Muslim.
    Personally, it's the constant, nonsensical attempt to link this guy to right-wing extremism--or right-wing anything--that's most annoying. Most of what I've read seems to imply that he had an incoherent mixture of fringe views and apocalyptic new age/occult beliefs. He was far more likely to be influenced by the plethora of conspiracy websites on the internets than any mainstream political rhetoric. Least of all, it seems to me, the rhetoric of a Bush-supporting, Christian conservative in Alaska.

    Most people appear to agree that his actions weren't influenced by the political tone but that doesn't stop the hacks.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Personally, it's the constant, nonsensical attempt to link this guy to right-wing extremism--or right-wing anything--that's most annoying. Most of what I've read seems to imply that he had an incoherent mixture of fringe views and apocalyptic new age/occult beliefs. He was far more likely to be influenced by the plethora of conspiracy websites on the internets than any mainstream political rhetoric. Least of all, it seems to me, the rhetoric of a Bush-supporting, Christian conservative in Alaska.

    Most people appear to agree that his actions weren't influenced by the political tone but that doesn't stop the hacks.
    It's very possible that "right wing anything" had nothing to do with this. It's also possible it did. Nobody knows right now, do they? But I do agree with your link...it's clear he had a "deep-seated mistrust of the government". You can make whatever you want out of that.
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    #40  
    Hey David! It's been a while! Good to see you again
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