View Poll Results: Releasing leaked info; right or wrong?

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  • Right - for whatever reason

    32 61.54%
  • Wrong - for whatever reason

    20 38.46%
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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    BBC News - Anonymous Mastercard attack 'hits payments'
    hmmm lil read here,, now is this and the post a few above exactly what these hacks are complaining about... Are they not denying us the public free and unfettered access to the net and information?? gotta love the whole damn thing.
    Ironically, the groups says they're trying to make the internet a "free and open place".
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Excellent example. Are you considering 'diplomacy' via the threat of nuclear technology to be a valid tactic of a civilized nation?
    ok, lets take it another route,, the DDOS attacks, hmmm not nukes, but they are trying...

    Of course. Of course. And no one can talk to a horse, of course. That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed. That being said, there is an important distinction between stealing information and having it provided to you.
    well until I know for sure, how do you know he didnt put the lil private up to the theft in the first place?

    I am of several minds on the matter. On the one hand, if the leaks were obtained illegally, that is one thing. On another, I have issues when underhanded behavior is taking place under the cloak of 'executive privilege' or something along those lines. If a government that can easily subpoena all of Microsoft's emails to prove collusion or unfair competition does not have a watchdog to check its similar behavior, can we fairly consider our government 'of, for, or by the people'?
    ummm i think the illegal part once it hits the courts, or military courts which is more likely. If its military, which is a pretty sure bet, the young private will damned old when he gets outta jail..
    Diplomacy is not a court of law, nor is it governed by anything but a perceived set of rules. I point to the spies recently deported, to the one that is being accused in Britan, to numerous others.. If you as my employee, and that is exactly what these diplomats are, regardless of who ultimately pays their wages, can not have a frank and open discussion with his or her boss, without it hiting the streets with in 2 mins or 2 years or in this case up to 40+ years ago than this is more screwed up than even you can imagine.
    Ultimately YOUR NEED TO KNOW, must be trumped by the security of your nation, and the people who directly serve it.
    Dont mince words as to the top infrastructure sites that would be affected by a terrorist attack. one of the things IDed was the main internet cables for the US. hmmmm omg johnny i have no internet, I cant talk to my friends over seas via the net.. omg why did the Govt let wikileaks publish the location of those cables, IM GONNA SUE SOMEBODy>>>>>> pls there is a reason this stuff is secret, the govt needs a record, but not one that is shared to the world... Again, just for you, there are a bunch of countries out there at this very moment shredding, burning, smashing, etc etc all that they can not completely hide from this wiki leaks group.. if you thnk this will change one damned thing, you have not been paying attention for most of your life.. ps, i think the US is at war right now, officially, even, putting info out like this, is ummm treason, now going after our dear great wikil leader for it is stupid, shooting or hanging that private is not out of this world, not in a time of war.. just saying.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    If the government is acting within the powers granted to it, what limits need to be placed on the information. A fundamental principle of our government is that the power is vested in 'We The People', and we choose to grant certain powers to our government. If I do not have the authority to do a thing, my government should not have the authority to do a thing either, should it?
    The US government does not operate in a vacuum. We are not the only country on the planet and we do have enemies. If we know every bit of information then so do those who donít particularly like us. What we do need to know is that there are mechanisms in place to stem abuseósuch as separation of powers.

    How would we know?
    Through one of many legal avenues. By the way, whistle-blowing is a legal and protected activity.

    Not clear on your question.
    Who is the hidden governance?
  4. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #84  
    What we do need to know is that there are mechanisms in place to stem abuseósuch as separation of powers
    Lies. Iran Contra, Iraq, Guantanamo, etc. People get pardoned, crimes often get ignored. Of course, Clinton can be convicted for a Sex Scandal, but Bush can't be prosecuted for War Crimes.

    By the way, whistle-blowing is a legal and protected activity.
    No it isn't. Daniel Ellsberg would like to tell you it is, but in reality knows that it isn't.
    Daniel Ellsberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble." - Ron Paul

    And don't use the slippery slope to argue this. Information is collected about us everyday, but most of us aren't important enough for anyone to really care.

    When it comes to dealing with Fascism, which side are you really on?
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    Lies. Iran Contra, Iraq, Guantanamo, etc. People get pardoned, crimes often get ignored. Of course, Clinton can be convicted for a Sex Scandal, but Bush can't be prosecuted for War Crimes.


    No it isn't. Daniel Ellsberg would like to tell you it is, but in reality knows that it isn't.
    Daniel Ellsberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble." - Ron Paul

    And don't use the slippery slope to argue this. Information is collected about us everyday, but most of us aren't important enough for anyone to really care.

    When it comes to dealing with Fascism, which side are you really on?
    1) its semantics
    2) free is only free if you let it. double standard if you insist that govt be wide open, but your personal info cant be given out.
    3)it is a slippery slope, you demand one, than the other must by default follow.
    4) ohhh gotta love people who have absolutely no idea, that label things with a big bad name. gessshh ..
    roll out another idea of any sort slap a label on it, and you have a new politcal party. Just because you dont like what is happening to our dear leader at wiki leaks, dont start waving labels. As was pointed out by myself and Groovy, these hacks are doing exactly the same thing, so its a lot like,,, no exactly like the pot calling the kettlle black. wow.. let me guess what they are doing is ok but not ok for the govt.. wow.. lol.. even though you have absolutely no proof that your govt is doing any of the ddos at the wiki leaks sites.. lolo this is rich..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  6. #86  
    What our dear beloved leader of the free internet has done is not illegal, at least I dont think it is, based on what little i know of swedish law. What it comes down to is irresponsible. Now, if our dear beloved leader of the free internet, paid that lil private to steal those docs, wellll now.. that is a whole different story. The only crime thus far is the actual theft of those documents. I find it strange that you see nothing wrong with the DDOS attacks by the allies of our DEAR Beloved leader of the free internet. Again, pls tell me, what the hell is the difference between what these allies of our dear beloved leader are doing and what you are accusing the govt of doing?
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  7. #87  
    I think the problem with releasing things is that there is a concern that no privacy will exist ultimately. I'm not sure that's rational as the target is government more than broadly all secrets.

    I think the information about the Libyian Bomber who blew up the 270+ americans on the flight over Scottland who was set free with the public reason of failing health (he's not ill and everyone involved knew that) and the private reason (Libyian Oil for UK) is illustrative of kinds of things that are secret that should not be.

    These are the kinds of secrets that don't endanger lives or put the fabric of civilization on the verge of collapse - but they do expose the lies and fabrications of the people in power and leave you wondering when fair play and honesty became extinct in goverments.

    <sigh>
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    What our dear beloved leader of the free internet has done is not illegal, at least I dont think it is, based on what little i know of swedish law. What it comes down to is irresponsible. Now, if our dear beloved leader of the free internet, paid that lil private to steal those docs, wellll now.. that is a whole different story. The only crime thus far is the actual theft of those documents. I find it strange that you see nothing wrong with the DDOS attacks by the allies of our DEAR Beloved leader of the free internet. Again, pls tell me, what the hell is the difference between what these allies of our dear beloved leader are doing and what you are accusing the govt of doing?
    The DDOS attacks are bad and inappropriate. However the actions by Mastercard, Visa, Amazon, and Paypal are all questionable and violate TOS as far as I can tell. The best idea would be a boycott of these but that's freakin' hard to accomplish.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    I think the problem with releasing things is that there is a concern that no privacy will exist ultimately. I'm not sure that's rational as the target is government more than broadly all secrets.

    I think the information about the Libyian Bomber who blew up the 270+ americans on the flight over Scottland who was set free with the public reason of failing health (he's not ill and everyone involved knew that) and the private reason (Libyian Oil for UK) is illustrative of kinds of things that are secret that should not be.

    These are the kinds of secrets that don't endanger lives or put the fabric of civilization on the verge of collapse - but they do expose the lies and fabrications of the people in power and leave you wondering when fair play and honesty became extinct in goverments.

    <sigh>
    who decides what gets released.. wkileaks???
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    The DDOS attacks are bad and inappropriate. However the actions by Mastercard, Visa, Amazon, and Paypal are all questionable and violate TOS as far as I can tell. The best idea would be a boycott of these but that's freakin' hard to accomplish.
    we have no idea what the terms of service are in any of these cases. If it is as they state, than they were perfectly with in their rights to terminate the service. Ultimately its about as free market as it going to get, and businesses have the right to deny service and terminate service. Insurance companys have been doing it for decades lolol. I would humbly suggest there is absolutely no difference between the two.

    To put another slant on it, why should say Amazon, who was being bombarded by someone with DDOS attacks have their entire system go down to protect one client.
    Again, we have no idea what the TOS is or was, if it is outside of the TOS, why hasnt wikileaks taken them to court?? Just asking
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I'm amazed the only objections posted here are those of your average law-abiding citizen, who feels that all this is just soooo bad because it's allegedly illegal. (yes no one's convicted yet)
    i have never said it was anything less than alleged. im far from average, in fact i am supporter of open internet, i just have a huge problem with poor little beloved leader.. he is no reporter, nor are the people that work for him. he is getting his 15 mins of fame, spread over several days.. if and only if he is found guilty of the charges against him will that fame continue for a while. Once that is over and done with, either way, he will fade in to the ether.
    His persona is total fluke, he should go back to his mothers basement.
    My bet, is nothing will happen to him....ooooh wait,, he will die of some sexually transmitted thing, and it will be a plot by the CIA. or some such..
    I find it extremely amusing the same people who are trying the DDOS attacks are the same people that say Castro was behind the Kennedy assination. wooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwoooooooooo Conspiracy Conspiracy Consipiracy.. or was it the lil green men from mars..
    Either way, it still comes down to a person from another country, has in his possesion stolen US govt documents. lol how simple is that. ps,, i also find it funny as hell that one of the major powers in the middle east, has to date twice asked the US to attack its enemies.. first Iran, now the Hezbolla in Lebenon.. wow.. so much for US not being wanted in the middle east by one an all..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I'm amazed the only objections posted here are those of your average law-abiding citizen, who feels that all this is just soooo bad because it's allegedly illegal. (yes no one's convicted yet)
    Umm, no. Though that might explain why you're hearing echos.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Punctuation is no luxury.
    You might also want to tone down on the derision.
    If you want to have a nice discussion without needlessly escalating, fine. If not, I have a thread over on AC I'd like to ask your help for.
    sureeee. answer the questions than.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    who decides what gets released.. wkileaks???
    Sure - and any other site that wants in on the action. I'm not saying this is a perfect situation.

    Reputational integrity may work. It works for Wiki - why not WikiLeaks? The question is - how will the site and sites like them evolve into something with a socially relevant long term position - unclear at this time.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    we have no idea what the terms of service are in any of these cases. If it is as they state, than they were perfectly with in their rights to terminate the service. Ultimately its about as free market as it going to get, and businesses have the right to deny service and terminate service. Insurance companys have been doing it for decades lolol. I would humbly suggest there is absolutely no difference between the two.

    To put another slant on it, why should say Amazon, who was being bombarded by someone with DDOS attacks have their entire system go down to protect one client.
    Again, we have no idea what the TOS is or was, if it is outside of the TOS, why hasnt wikileaks taken them to court?? Just asking
    My TOS - use of the card as I see fit within limits is severely compromised - but yes I have other options possibly and the free market thank goodness makes it possible to do that.

    Amazon wasn't DDOS before they dropped WikiLeaks - it was after - unless you know something I don't. The pressure applied was from Joe Liberman's senate office. Also I don't think the DDOS is fair or good.

    I think your passion here is impairing your ability to make your points; some of which seem pretty cogent and some of which I don't share but might if you were more clear. Some of the things we disagree on we are unlilkely to see eye to eye on ever - but you never know.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The US government does not operate in a vacuum.
    All the more reason it should be upholding the ideals upon which it was founded.
    We are not the only country on the planet and we do have enemies.
    And do you suggest those are enemies simply due to their 'hating freedom', or due to some sketchy actions by our agents in the past?
    If we know every bit of information then so do those who don’t particularly like us.
    All the more reason for our agents acting in a transparent manner.
    What we do need to know is that there are mechanisms in place to stem abuse—such as separation of powers.
    When was the last time that those powers acted separately?
    Through one of many legal avenues. By the way, whistle-blowing is a legal and protected activity.
    Protected by whom? What's their record for protecting whistleblowers?
    Who is the hidden governance?
    How am I supposed to know? They're hidden. But seriously, it's not a who. It's a what. When our agents are supposed to be acting in our interest, but do not want us to know what they're doing, that's anathema to the ideals upon which the country was supposedly founded. Sunshine laws? Freedom of Information? Are these just words which are supposed to be taken with a nod and a wink, or do words mean things?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    1) its semantics
    2) free is only free if you let it. double standard if you insist that govt be wide open, but your personal info cant be given out.
    3)it is a slippery slope, you demand one, than the other must by default follow.
    Sorry, but that doesn't follow. If my employer wants to know what I'm doing while I'm on the clock, that's their prerogative. I do not de facto get reciprocity (excepting a case where it's a publicly held company and I own stock in it).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #98  
    it only doesn't follow according to your logic. Not mine. if you feel the need to know exactly what a given "agent" is doing, join the diplomatic core. Remember, you are your govt. pure and simple.
    I will again point to the obvious, other countries at this very moment, have shredded, burned and locked up thier diplomatic cables. All wikileaks has done, is slammed the door shut, sealed it up, and someone has melted the key. If you think for one minute this will ever happen again, your dreaming.
    I still say, its a slippery slope, you make govt open and transparent, your email and such will become the same.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Why would they topple and why does it have to be 100%.
    Because the first roll of government is to protect it's people. Let's not even start a debate about if there are countries hostile towards us and our interests. In order to effectively do this, agencies have to be able to communicate within itself and to other agencies about international issues, fears, concerns, and outright threats. Shutting down these channels effectively shuts down the countries ability to share and leverage defensive information and strategies.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #100  
    you are your govt. pure and simple.
    That's a really naive statement.
    I am not my government, this form of cohesion isn't representing everybody - it's representing the majority and even then it doesn't mean I'm doing anything. I know I'm not killing civilians in Afghanistan.
    Another thought - if corporations can throw as much money at an election to influence the populous then where's the fairness in that? Campaigns with the most money shouldn't win, it should be those with the best ideas. But, if I remember correctly - almost every presidential elections in the United States in the last century was won by the candidate with the most money.
    Also, 3rd Party candidates don't get fair media coverage or access to debates.

    Also, so if I elect somebody, then they lie to me - is that ok? That's where Wikileaks comes in, telling us about backroom deals between governments - how Sweden's government ignores its parliament and goes straight to secret dealings with the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Because the first roll of government is to protect it's people.
    What a fantasy.

    Now for a humorous take on the Wikileaks situation:




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