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  1. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    And if we minded our own business the threats would end?
    Maybe not now, we've already done so much damage to the Middle East that grudges might last forever...
    Israel-Palestine is a problem created by westerners. The occupation of Saudi Arabia after the unnecessary Dessert Storm War (The war and the occupation upset many).
    Bah, I already posted this.

    http://forums.precentral.net/2773771-post99.html

    @Jlegacy did you really say something about us changing what made them mad?

    by that logic, when your daughter or sister wears a skimpy dress, gwtting raped is HER fault. Seriously, you lost points on that.
    Not by that logic. If your son (The United States) robbed/raped a woman (The woman being the middle east) then her brother (Uh, let's say Al Qaeda.) tried to kill him afterwards then the analogy would make more sense.

    All we need to do is GET RID of the "rules of war" and let our troops just do their job.
    That would be a bad idea. We've already dealt with instances of torture and abuse, not having rules would make that worse.
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  2. #162  
    and if the brother killed him, he would be convicted of murder even if he used the 'bad man made me angry' defense.

    you can't win that argument. Nothing the west has done justifies what the arab world has done to each other and to western targets.
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    But you didn't answer my other questions. Do you know the first US President who had to deal with an unpopular war over a similar type of threat? If you do, can you tell me what foreign policy practice had dredged up such anger?
  4. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #164  
    I'm not saying that Al Qaeda was justified with what they did, I'm saying that what we've done and are still doing in the Middle East right now is counterproductive and idiotic.

    I'll win this argument, because eventually everyone will wake up and realize how little war is helping national/internation security and how many people die and how much it costs.

    The Taliban didn't attack us on 9-11, but since we've invaded Iraq and Afghanistan they've attempted to.
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  5. #165  
    the taliban gave al qaeda the place to train and operate. They are equally guilty.
  6. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    But you didn't answer my other questions. Do you know the first US President who had to deal with an unpopular war over a similar type of threat? If you do, can you tell me what foreign policy practice had dredged up such anger?
    I don't think it's the first "unpopular war", but the Vietnam War was quite unpopular. Not sure if there was a similar type of threat, but the government was propagating the threat of Communism. The war was unpopular because of the military conscript, how long it lasted, how much it cost financially, and how many young people lives it claimed.
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    the taliban gave al qaeda the place to train and operate. They are equally guilty.
    The Taliban isn't as organized as you think it is. Most Taliban fighting over in Afghanistan right now are fighting for local reasons, not for Jihad or Al Qaeda.

    And Al Qaeda didn't just train and operate in Afghanistan, they're a worldwide organization. Osama was in Afghanistan at time of the 9-11 attacks, but he and Al Qaeda were long gone before we had troops on the ground.

    Do you really think going after everyone that lives in Afghanistan is worth the thousands of troop deaths?
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  8. #168  
    the taliban was the official govt of afghanistan.
  9. groovy's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    I don't think it's the first "unpopular war", but the Vietnam War was quite unpopular. Not sure if there was a similar type of threat, but the government was propagating the threat of Communism. The war was unpopular because of the military conscript, how long it lasted, how much it cost financially, and how many young people lives it claimed.
    Actually, you have to go back a little further to the First Barbary War where Jefferson sent armed frigates to the Mediterranean without a Congressional approval of a declaration of war. About such a war, I might add, John Adams said “We ought not to fight them at all unless we determine to fight them forever.” What was that dastardly foreign policy that caused such anger from the Barbary states? Only that we dared to do commerce through free waters without paying protection money to it's leaders.

    I don't say this to broad brush any group of people. I only wish to bring attention to the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who would wish us harm for a lot of reasons; not all of which are our fault. Retreating from the world does not necessarily make us safer.
  10. #170  
    BC, for the most part. Provincial Emergency Program, did a lot of back country rescues. High altitude stuff, worked a lot with Coast Guard all along the coast. I also did a stint on what was called the rocky mountain team, from mexico to Alaska. lost 15 friends along the way to avalanches, and what not, no not on rescues, doing the same thing we were required to pull people out of.. i had enough after pulling a 2 little boys out of a river in northern bc. they were 22 and 23 in victims i had to recover. I have been retired from it now for about 10 years. Arthritis and plain I dont want to recover kids anymore is why i quit.
    As to working with coast guard and to a lesser degree the airforce, it was mostly lost fishermen and looking for downed aircraft..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  11.    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Retreating from the world does not necessarily make us safer.
    *The ol' "Stick Your Head in the Sand" trick.
  12. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Actually, you have to go back a little further to the First Barbary War where Jefferson sent armed frigates to the Mediterranean without a Congressional approval of a declaration of war. About such a war, I might add, John Adams said “We ought not to fight them at all unless we determine to fight them forever.” What was that dastardly foreign policy that caused such anger from the Barbary states? Only that we dared to do commerce through free waters without paying protection money to it's leaders.

    I don't say this to broad brush any group of people. I only wish to bring attention to the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who would wish us harm for a lot of reasons; not all of which are our fault. Retreating from the world does not necessarily make us safer.
    One would like to think that the world is more civilized now.

    But there are some obvious reasons why the Islamic world is unhappy with us. One can't deny that. It might be inconvenient for us to fix the reasons they claim their mad at us and see if they're still mad at us, but I think that it's better than a decade long war.
    We've had a 9 year experiment with this war, it's obvious we need to try something different.

    "Today the soil of Afghanistan is full of land mines, bullets, and bombs - when what we really need is an invasion of hospitals, clinics, and schools for boys and girls." - Malalai Joya

    the taliban was the official govt of afghanistan.
    They were, but they're a strong grassroots organization now. A lot of Afghans feel more represented by the local Taliban than they do by the current government.



    Kinda related...Wikileaks finally released those 250,000 diplomatic cables that they were rumored to have 6-7 months ago.
    Cable Viewer
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  13. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #173  
    I'm not saying that we should be introverts and not deal with other governments at all, I'm saying we trade with all countries and not have ridiculous embargoes; I'm saying that when Arab countries have a disagreement, we let them work it out without our troops standing over them; I'm saying that we shouldn't have had a 2-state solution in Palestine in the first place, and that giving Israel billions of dollars of military equipment is provocative to everyone else in the region.
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  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    One would like to think that the world is more civilized now.
    One would. It's not bad to act like the world is a more civilized place as long as one prepares for the occasion that it's not.

    But there are some obvious reasons why the Islamic world is unhappy with us. One can't deny that.
    I don't know they're as obvious as you might believe.

    "Today the soil of Afghanistan is full of land mines, bullets, and bombs - when what we really need is an invasion of hospitals, clinics, and schools for boys and girls." - Malalai Joya
    I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of people who are building hospitals, clinics, and schools in Afghanistan. And there are many more who would like to. Problem is there are a lot of locals who really don't want them and, in fact, see them as a provocation of Western imperial powers. If you're talking about the reasons "they" don't like us, you might include this one.
  15. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #175  
    I'd recommend reading the book "Stones into Schools."
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  16.    #176  
    JL, do you expect us to "like" or reason with "people" that purposely stick themselves and their weapons in places like hospitals and schools to maximize innocent casualties when we hit them?

    And you say we should try to have these "people" like us? So as not to antagonize them?
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/28/2010 at 07:16 PM.
  17. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #177  
    As long as NATO is assassinating top Taliban officials who fought against the Russians during the Cold War days, the radical youth are going to continue replacing them and the more likely it is that you'll be fighting a more radical enemy.

    The point of the schools are to decrease the chance of the youth being radical through use of education.

    I point back to my post about how our airstrikes kill entire villages of innocent civilians.
    You disgust me by implying that everyone in Afghanistan is a radical terrorist that like to maximize casualties and aren't "people".
    Most people are peaceful and not radical. Get your head out of the sand.
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  18.    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    You disgust me by implying that everyone in Afghanistan is a radical terrorist ......
    You're not making any sense.
    If I clearly posted a question about how they stick themselves in schools and hospitals to maximize INNOCENT casualties, then i'm implying, no, STATING, that there are innocent people there!

    How the hell does that come off as me "implying that they're all radical terrorists over there"???

    YOU're stereotyping ME.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/29/2010 at 06:39 AM.
  19.    #179  
    GFN, the terrorists said that the office workers in the Twin Towers were "INFIDELS" because they paid taxes to the U.S. government, therefore, perfectly acceptable as targets.

    How are we supposed to reason with this type of thinking?

    I lived in NYC most of my life and I was still there when it happened. I know the friends that I lost were not crusading infidels, and most of the world knows that too.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/29/2010 at 07:16 AM.
  20.    #180  
    I agree with Micael on that also.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/29/2010 at 07:49 AM.
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