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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Um no, I was originally referring to "toppling dictators"...
    That may have been your original point but your question to Micael inquired only into his trust in the government in "situations of war". You may view toppling murderous dictators as a misguided use of the Constitutional mandate to conduct war in defense of the nation but I think you'll agree that it's a mandate nonetheless. Providing health care, on the other hand, is not a mandate.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Actually, Canada not so much. otherwise how do you explain that Quebec is always trying to secede, and insist on the French language being co-equal, even in other parts of canada.

    Language is often more devisive than politics or religion (ever hear the tower of babel story?).

    They continue to attempt sucession, and to keep themselves separate as "french canadians". Ironicall, people in France look down on "french canadians" as being ignorant and unsophisticated - and undeserving of the term "french" in calling themselves french-canadian.
    your right, Some Quebecors want to have their own country. Came very close a bit back. the problem, as they found out, their portion of the debt, the land that they originally claimed, etc etc was not in their expectations.
    Proportionally, Quebec gets far more off the feds than they realized. That would have gone south very quickly. As to being equal language wise, well I and most other english canadians have zero problem with it. I personally had 4 years of french in high school. No I dont speak it, but when immersed in it for a few hours I can follow it and even respond. The french of Canada are unique, and valued in my mind. I am from the west, BC originally, now in Ontario, the west during that whole show came very very close to quietly going its own way. There was a considerable push to separate, but it was done very quietly, with little fan fare. What is Manitboa west and North, would have become western canada. When this was also brought to the attention of the seperatists in Quebec, Ontario, and the Maritime provinces, suddenly things took a change. We out west were tired of the whole damn thing, and saw no reason to continue if Quebec left.
    The big thing that really would have put paid to it, was the first nations reserves along the St lawerance seaway, this reserve straddles both the states and canada, they on the canadian side refused to be part of the seperation, which basiclly put the seaway in Canadas hands not Quebecs. It was still a close vote, very close. Since that time, there has been very very little talk about it. Even the seperatist party is more about getting more rights than leaving Confederation. As to the meltiing pot, or mosaic, we take in a lot of people from around the world. Far more than what many know about. take a look at the different communties in the lower mainland of BC, the communties in Ontario, many that only speak their country of origin language, which i might add i disagree with ... oh one more lil thing, i have seen the dark side Groovy, micael showed me,,, i still have nightmares about it lolol
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  3. #103  
    Watching people walk by naked isnt going to, will just make terrorists more creative. When will security realize that they are going too far? If I had kids I would not want them walking through a scanner so some peeve could see them naked! Not to mention I don't want it either. And the worst part is that you HVE to be rigorously groped or seen in the scanner because if u don't, you get sued thousands of dollars.. really messed up...
  4. #104  
    the scans or the pat down are required, sorry, if i was flying and someone refused, i would question getting on the flight. My wife and childrens lives are far more important to me than someone complaining about their rights being violated. What about my rights to enjoy life liberty and happiness, your refusal can and will hinder that. Considering what is going on, this is a small price to pay. I said it in an earlier post, leave those over there to it, get the troops out, and if they attack any and i mean any western nation, make them pay, make them pay huge, make it so that even the people in their home countries think twice about allowing them to do it again. Or just unleash some nice people who can and will do what is needed to be done. I tire of hearing about the civilians being caught up, guess what, they are killing each other off faster than some drone strike with collateral casualties. If this sounds a little hard nosed, too bad. Treat them like they would treat us, harshly.
    One more little thing, with giving them what they want, they get NOTHING, no medical, no infrastructure nada nyet nothing. I would not presume to force my belief system ( or in my case lack of lolol ) on anyone, least of all the middle east, if they give us something, we give back. if they attack, we attack back, I can even live with preemptive strikes against an enemy.
    Use their core belief, as twisted as it is, against them. I believe he/she with the bigger stick usually wins when allowed to swing for the fences.. damn im sounding more dark sideish every day...
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  5. #105  
    Ya defiantly agree with you on the darksideish thing, I don't think that kind of attention is what we want either otherwise we become an enemy of the world and I'd prefer not to do that. As far as the scanning and pat downs go, that's a bit harsh considering u have a better chance of getting hit by lightning 5 times before you are in a hijacked plane. So if people start hiding things up their butts are we going to have to have cavity checks? As I said before the people that do this are creative evil people who will stop at nothing, if anything, they still win because they have us going through this crazy kind of violations. I complete want my kids, If I had them, safe, but some sort of line has to be drawn, no?
  6. #106  
    I'm totally for fighting against threats of terror, and favor all the things we are doing, body scans etc, as long as it does not get divisive or involves negatively stereotyping or stigmatizing an entire group of people, whether it be french canadians or all the muslims in the world. Thats where I draw the line.

    But I've always been curious as to why conservative news outlets seem to really dwell on the threat of terror, and why conservatives in general seem so interested in talking about it. I mean its important sure, and we should do all we can, but I'm just not interested in talking about it all the time and I've always wondered why other people are.

    I used to think that it was some type of a political drive, that promoting discussion of a terror threat will somehow shift the political conversation in a way that conservatives think will get them votes.

    But a study published recently in the journal "Science" suggests that there's more to it - that there may be biological differences in the way that conservatives perceive threats, compared to liberals. In fact, this study demonstrated that people with conservative views tend to react more vigorously to sudden noises and threatening visual images compared to people with liberal views.

    I know that some of you on the conservative side, may feel like (as a liberal) I'm trying to show that conservatives are over-fearful or are too obsessive about perceived immediate threats like terror.

    But this study could also be interpreted as showing that liberals don't react vigorously enough to these types of perceived threats.

    So however you intepret it, it an interesting idea and, after reading the article and thinking about it, I do think this study has some truth to it.

    In the interest of adding something to the discussion, here's the abstract to the paper and the links below:

    "Although political views have been thought to arise largely from individuals' experiences, recent research suggests that they may have a biological basis. We present evidence that variations in political attitudes correlate with physiological traits. In a group of 46 adult participants with strong political beliefs, individuals with measurably lower physical sensitivities to sudden noises and threatening visual images were more likely to support foreign aid, liberal immigration policies, pacifism, and gun control, whereas individuals displaying measurably higher physiological reactions to those same stimuli were more likely to favor defense spending, capital punishment, patriotism, and the Iraq War. Thus, the degree to which individuals are physiologically responsive to threat appears to indicate the degree to which they advocate policies that protect the existing social structure from both external (outgroup) and internal (norm-violator) threats."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801995

    http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman...blog/oxley.pdf
    (link to full article: warning pdf file)
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 11/25/2010 at 01:18 PM. Reason: fixed one of the links
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    You just called all conservatives 'uptight'!
    Not your intention I know (but shhh... I agree! )
    To be fair, while the science shows that there are quantitative differences in the way that conservatives and liberals react to perceived threats, it does not make judgements about which response is more appropriate.
  8. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #108  
    Peace, Freedom, Prosperity.

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  9. #109  
    wow. Only in America
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    You just called all conservatives 'uptight'!
    Not your intention I know (but shhh... I agree! )
    I don't know about that. I think the study can be interpreted as implying Conservatives have better protective instincts and a more realistic view of the violent side of human nature.
  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ... oh one more lil thing, i have seen the dark side Groovy, micael showed me,,, i still have nightmares about it lolol
    Don't worry. They go away with time.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I don't know about that. I think the study can be interpreted as implying Conservatives have better protective instincts and a more realistic view of the violent side of human nature.
    Or they are a bunch of uptight narrow minded "morans" that are scared of their own shadows that make knee jerk reactions instead of rational decisions.


    I read that article about a year ago. I love walking up behind repubs and making loud noises, scares the **** out of them every time. People that are uptight should not be allowed to make decisions that affect other normal/rational people.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    No offense (on an emotional level I agree with you), but didn't the Russians try that in Afghanistan? Didn't the US try that in Vietnam?
    agreed, however, i am not talking about vietnam or afghanistan type of battles/war/police actions, I am talking about using the same sort of tactics that the wack jobs use. lets face it, an aircraft carrier off the coast of X, sends out a drone. bada bing bada boom, no fooling around with troops on the ground. use the ol eye for an eye routine. they kill or maim or blow up something of ours, we do it back, in triplicate. They kill civilians, etc etc.. this may sound harsh, but its what they expect, give them what they want, remove the troops, ban all exports and imports to them, no foods, medicines, machinery etc etc.. i know this flys in the face of being nice to our neighbors, but lets face it, if your neighbors were shooting your dog, shooting at your house, etc etc, you would be doing something about it. This is no different. Act like rabid animals, be prepared to be put down.
    One of the things I find so hypocritical about the whole thing, they come over here, and demand it be just like home, with the 1-10 century old ideals. Arranged marriages, burkas, etc etc, if you want that, than go back to your home country. Damn Groovy and Micael, you two are starting to twist me up againlol
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ban all exports and imports to them, no foods, medicines, machinery etc etc..
    This is the "diplomacy" we were trying to do to Iraq to get them in line, but then it turns out that Russia (permanent member of the security council) was back-dooring all of those things for cheap oil.

    Even the UN's Food for Oil program, which was meant to bring food and aid to civilians, turned out to be a sweetheart deal for Saddam and the UN President was caught up in the scandal.

    But I'm with you on the rest.
  15. #115  
    Sorry, I disagree with that whole statement. That kind of thinking only adds fuel to the fire. It gives those that otherwise wouldn't feel hostility to the west, a reason. Not to mention, a reason for the rest of the world to look at you with disgust. You honestly believe killing civilians tit for tat is a legitimate answer? No offence personally but imglad you're not running your country

    edit:
    don't forget...the terrorists don't give a damn about their own people.
    Last edited by sledge007; 11/26/2010 at 11:16 AM.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledge007 View Post
    Sorry, I disagree with that whole statement. That kind of thinking only adds fuel to the fire. It gives those that otherwise wouldn't feel hostility to the west, a reason. Not to mention, a reason for the rest of the world to look at you with disgust. You honestly believe killing civilians tit for tat is a legitimate answer? No offence personally but imglad you're not running your country

    edit:
    don't forget...the terrorists don't give a damn about their own people.
    fuel to the fire, hmmm ok, let me put it to you this way. We, (the western world ) pull out of the middle east. Completely. No arguement from me. Remove all our troops. If a given mid east nation wants to do business with a given western company, ok again no problem. How long, with statements coming from these yo yos like we want the calphiate to cover the world, death to all nonbelievers), do you think it will be before they notch up their attacks? Look I know its a minority of wackos, a tiny fraction. right, and i never saw the muslims of the middle east dancing and cheering after 9/11, in the streets etc etc.. never happened, right? So, your saying that its ok for them to attack our civillians, but not ok for us to attack theirs? Its ok to blow up plane loads, buildings, ships, shoot and push a crippled person into the sea on a hijacked cruise liner, blow up transit systems, oh not to mention, try to force their belief system down our throats. But that is ok? or stoning to death of people for imagined crimes, or forced marriages, or or or a lot of other things that are totally alien to our standards, I am not saying we are perfect, far from it, but gesssh i dont recall any one other than a few hundred thousand wackos demanding the death of some danish cartoonist, or an author for writing a book... not to mention a myriad of other things... hmmm ok, your right, and no offense, I am really glad your not running my country.
    edit, their own people will give a damn once they realize that every time some yo yo in the mountains blows up a train, plane or automobile, killing dozens if not hundreds of innocents, that there is something that they understand completely, the law of retribution, which is something they do understand an live by.. the blood feud... its real, and is on going at this very moment in both iraq and afghanistan.. .. a freind of mine is attached to the military, he is over there,, he works with both the us, canadian and nato forces, fluent in pashtu.. as he put it to me the last time he was here,,, the way of life, in the highlands is totally and completely foreign to most. one day your a friend the next your dead, by the hand of the same man who poured you tea the day before... its the way things are done, its what they expect.. accept.. to fight a war with these people you have to fight it on their standards, which frankly are not 21 st century, try a couple hundred years ago, and you would be getting close.. the biggest mistake we are making is that we are trying to lay our moral and present life standard on a 12th century thinking individual.. wow not gonna work folks.. like for like..
    Last edited by xForsaken; 11/26/2010 at 03:25 PM.
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  17. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    agreed, however, i am not talking about vietnam or afghanistan type of battles/war/police actions, I am talking about using the same sort of tactics that the wack jobs use. lets face it, an aircraft carrier off the coast of X, sends out a drone. bada bing bada boom, no fooling around with troops on the ground. use the ol eye for an eye routine. they kill or maim or blow up something of ours, we do it back, in triplicate. They kill civilians, etc etc.. this may sound harsh, but its what they expect, give them what they want, remove the troops, ban all exports and imports to them, no foods, medicines, machinery etc etc.. i know this flys in the face of being nice to our neighbors, but lets face it, if your neighbors were shooting your dog, shooting at your house, etc etc, you would be doing something about it. This is no different. Act like rabid animals, be prepared to be put down.
    One of the things I find so hypocritical about the whole thing, they come over here, and demand it be just like home, with the 1-10 century old ideals. Arranged marriages, burkas, etc etc, if you want that, than go back to your home country. Damn Groovy and Micael, you two are starting to twist me up againlol
    First thought: The United States has killed more civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan (Take your pick) than died in the 9-11 attacks.
    ~3,000 civilians died in the September 11th attacks.
    take your pick on Iraq (66,081 civilian deaths, 3,771 NATO/ally deaths according the Wikileaks' Iraq War Logs).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilia...2%80%93present)
    Either way, you can't justify the war as "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," because we've killed way more people than Al Qaeda did.

    Sanctions aren't a pretty thing. Governments do it to get back at other governments, but it hurts the people of the country sanctioned the most. Our government (USA) has held the idea over the years that sanctions will hurt the people enough to make them want to overthrough their leaders, but it does the opposite - the people generally cling to their leaders more.
    [deleted by moderator]
    Last edited by groovy; 11/27/2010 at 03:12 AM. Reason: unnecessary
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  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    First thought: The United States has killed more civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan (Take your pick) than died in the 9-11 attacks.
    ~3,000 civilians died in the September 11th attacks.
    take your pick on Iraq (66,081 civilian deaths, 3,771 NATO/ally deaths according the Wikileaks' Iraq War Logs).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilia...2%80%93present)
    Either way, you can't justify the war as "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," because we've killed way more people than Al Qaeda did.

    Sanctions aren't a pretty thing. Governments do it to get back at other governments, but it hurts the people of the country sanctioned the most. Our government (USA) has held the idea over the years that sanctions will hurt the people enough to make them want to overthrough their leaders, but it does the opposite - the people generally cling to their leaders more.

    [moderator deleted]
    k im an *******, but i am not referring to muslims, i could care less if you or anyone else is muslim. I have a problem with people trying to make my country like their country. I could care less if its italian, greek, syrian, south african etc etc.. This is the way MY country is, if you want it like what you had in YOUR country than go back. Instead of calling me names, look at the problem, as much as you say sanctions do not work, nor does glad handing. you can offer to give them the world and it wont make an iota of difference. you offer to leave them to their world, and we are viewed as being non careing. We insist in our great humanitarian thinking, to help them with medicines and so on. With it, the great humanitarian thinking also wants to stop the stonings, the beheadings, the forced marriages of little girls etc etc.. So leave them to their little world, let them live in it, if we choose to let them come here, they must adhere to OUR rules. right or wrong, its OUR rules, OUR belief system, OUR goverment, OUR way of doing things. Yes OUR ways are different, if you dont like it, dont come.
    As to tit for tat, as I said, thats what, at least in the middle east, is the way of life. You kill my brother I kill yours, You owe me a blood debt, give me your 10 year old daughter to satisfy it. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a way of life that is based in the 4-5th century. When we in the west learn this lesson, we will gain a step up on them. The civilian deaths, hmmmm how many did the west actually kill, and how many did they kill themselves? Some estimates say the official numbers of civilian deaths is far far higher, due to tribal, and religious in fighting. Most of the deaths were not caused by the west, but by these same people. Yes, there have been some tragic mistakes, hell even some out right murders by western forces. I dont see western forces blowing up markets, slaughtering school girls, posioning them, etc etc..
    When the west learns, that the basis of thinking is so far removed from iyr way of thinking than we will have a chance. Until than, we will continue on the back foot. Slowly backing down. It may take a while, but if we dont learn this important lesson, we will ultimately loose. You can not appease someone who hates you, just because you are you.
    Last edited by groovy; 11/27/2010 at 03:14 AM.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  19. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #119  
    I'm disgusted by your generalizations of cultures. Everyone in the middle east thinks violence is the only way to solve problems? Islam's all pedofiles? Bah.

    as much as you say sanctions do not work, nor does glad handing.
    But "glad handing" (I'd rather say 'free and unbiased trade', but that's me...) doesn't hurt the people like sanctions do. You seem to completely disregard that.

    The civilian deaths, hmmmm how many did the west actually kill, and how many did they kill themselves?
    I like the Wikileaks reports. The US government likes to keep the bodycount down on purpose (Even in internal reporting), so it's highly unlikely they'll consider tribal killings of civilians as their own collateral damage.

    You can not appease someone who hates you, just because you are you.
    That's another generalization. Most people over there hate Westerners because we interfere with their lifestyle, regardless of whether or not we do it because of oil or nationbuilding. "They hate us because of our freedom" is some of the biggest bullsh*it westerners have made up to try to dehumanize different cultures.

    Also, NATO's done worse than the Taliban. They've blown up entire villages killing mostly women and children, because we thought some mean old Taliban leader was hiding there.

    Go on Wikipedia, and look up the articles on major airstrikes.

    Hyderabad airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Azizabad airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Granai airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Deh Bala wedding party bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by JLegacy; 11/26/2010 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Adding links...
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  20. #120  
    while everyone is cooling down, please stop by the thanksgiving web-a-thon and donate to buy hardware so WebOS Internals can keep UberKernal, Preware, and all their stuff working on webOS 2.0.

    the donation thread link is in my signature. now back to your arguing.

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