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  1. #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    Your point cannot be discounted: that to some extent at least, our military presence in the middle east is essentially "playing into the extremists' hands"; but you are also implying as fact that the same military presence does nothing to curb terrorism, which I think is a huge assumption. Whether you believe that American military activities help recruit new terrorists, you can't dispute the fact that while they are there, they are taking the war to current active terrorists. At the very least, we are making them attack us over there and attack our military rather than coming over here to attack our citizens.

    I cannot say as fact that your strategy would be less effective, but you also can't state as fact that it wouldn't be harmful (less effective)
    we're taking the fight to terrorists in the middle east, yes. But they have no problem recruiting islamic extremists outside of the middle east... Even in US... And they do it on the basis that America is a threat to Islam... The xmas bomber and the recent arrest of a somalian jihadist hopeful are evidence of that. We gotta stop adding fuel to the flames.
  2. #342  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    no matter how you choose to attack, it's impossible to fight a faceless enemy without civilian casualties. And those casualties will continue to be fuel for terrorist recruiters...

    Ummm long before there were American Troops in the middle east, there was attacks by this faceless enemy. This faceless enemy directly attacked civillians, Isreali and western.
    Again I point to Munich Olympics, and a host of other little murders. All this well before American troops were in the middle east. I point to the murder of a wheel chair bound cruise line passeger, heck I can point to a lot of them.
    Yes, American since about 1972 supported Isreal with money and arms, both ended in 2007. Now they buy, just like any other nation. Yes they still receive loans, but they are required to pay them back, they are loans after all. During this whole time, military and monetary support went to numerous middle east countries. Again, in the form of loans and purchasing of equipment. As far as I can tell, any nation that was bent on wiping out Isreal got nada, ohhh wait, even Palestine got money and aid and continues to do so to this very day.
    so to counter your "who know's we haven't tried it... I think we all know that more of the same wont work." statement, ya it has been tried over an over again for decades. That didnt work either..
    i'm more interested in protecting American's from the Islamic Terrorism than Israeli's...

    Maybe that makes me a bad person...

    regardless, it's a fact that our military presence there and seemingly biased support of Israel continues to make it easy for terrorists to paint the US as a threat to Islam and use that image to recruit.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 12/02/2010 at 01:19 PM.
  3. #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i'm more interested in protecting American's from the Islamic Terrorism than Israeli's...

    Maybe that makes me a bad person...
    i think, not postive oh wait,, here is a lil posting,,

    Background: Four heavily armed Palestinian terrorists in October hijack the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, carrying more than 400 passengers and crew, off Egypt. The hijackers demand that Israel free 50 Palestinian prisoners. The terrorists kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair. After a two-day drama, the hijackers surrender in exchange for a pledge of safe passage. But when an Egyptian jet tries to fly the hijackers to freedom, U.S. Navy F-14 fighters intercept it and force it to land in Sicily. The terrorists are taken into custody by Italian authorities. Counter- terrorist units from the U.S responded, including elements of Delta Force and SEAL Team Six, however the situation was resolved before an assault became necessary.

    Frankly I could care less if its American, Isreali, German, French etc etc etc, you start distingushing you will loose. Remember, while America is the face, all western nations are being threatened, or does this not compute..


    The 7 July 2005 London bombings (often referred to as 7/7) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks, upon London's public transport system during the morning rush hour. On that morning, four al-Qaeda associated militants detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession, a fourth bomb exploding an hour later on a double-decker bus in Tavistock Square. Fifty-two civilians were killed in the attacks and around 700 were injured.


    Nearly 3,000 victims and the 19 hijackers died in the attacks.[4] According to the New York State Health Department, 836 responders, including firefighters and police personnel, have died as of June 2009.[4] Among the 2,752 victims who died in the attacks on the World Trade Center were 343 firefighters and 60 police officers from New York City and the Port Authority.[5] 184 people were killed in the attacks on the Pentagon.[6] The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 70 countries.[7] In addition, there was at least one secondary death—one person was ruled by a medical examiner to have died from lung disease due to exposure to dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center.[8]

    The United States responded to the attacks by launching the War on Terror, invading Afghanistan to depose the Taliban, who had harbored al-Qaeda terrorists, and enacting the USA PATRIOT Act. Many other countries also strengthened their anti-terrorism legislation and expanded law enforcement powers. Some American stock exchanges stayed closed for the rest of the week following the attack, and posted enormous losses upon reopening, especially in the airline and insurance industries. The destruction of billions of dollars' worth of office space caused serious damage to the economy of Lower Manhattan.


    oh and remember this last one was before the War on Terrorism started, but hey who am i to point to facts .... hmmm gotta love the net..
    Last edited by xForsaken; 12/02/2010 at 01:29 PM.
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    #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i'm not opposed to most of your ideas. But I doubt we'll be able to isolate and kill known terrorist without unintended consequences...
    Yep, there's bound to be messes. Beats the alternate of hiding our heads in the sand and doing nothing but talk.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yep, there's bound to be messes. Beats the alternate of hiding our heads in the sand and doing nothing but talk.
    but the unintended consequence is that more 'good people' turn into 'bad people' how is that gonna diminish the threat?
  6. #346  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i think, not postive oh wait,, here is a lil posting,,

    Background: Four heavily armed Palestinian terrorists in October hijack the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, carrying more than 400 passengers and crew, off Egypt. The hijackers demand that Israel free 50 Palestinian prisoners. The terrorists kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair. After a two-day drama, the hijackers surrender in exchange for a pledge of safe passage. But when an Egyptian jet tries to fly the hijackers to freedom, U.S. Navy F-14 fighters intercept it and force it to land in Sicily. The terrorists are taken into custody by Italian authorities. Counter- terrorist units from the U.S responded, including elements of Delta Force and SEAL Team Six, however the situation was resolved before an assault became necessary.

    Frankly I could care less if its American, Isreali, German, French etc etc etc, you start distingushing you will loose. Remember, while America is the face, all western nations are being threatened, or does this not compute..


    The 7 July 2005 London bombings (often referred to as 7/7) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks, upon London's public transport system during the morning rush hour. On that morning, four al-Qaeda associated militants detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession, a fourth bomb exploding an hour later on a double-decker bus in Tavistock Square. Fifty-two civilians were killed in the attacks and around 700 were injured.


    Nearly 3,000 victims and the 19 hijackers died in the attacks.[4] According to the New York State Health Department, 836 responders, including firefighters and police personnel, have died as of June 2009.[4] Among the 2,752 victims who died in the attacks on the World Trade Center were 343 firefighters and 60 police officers from New York City and the Port Authority.[5] 184 people were killed in the attacks on the Pentagon.[6] The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 70 countries.[7] In addition, there was at least one secondary death—one person was ruled by a medical examiner to have died from lung disease due to exposure to dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center.[8]

    The United States responded to the attacks by launching the War on Terror, invading Afghanistan to depose the Taliban, who had harbored al-Qaeda terrorists, and enacting the USA PATRIOT Act. Many other countries also strengthened their anti-terrorism legislation and expanded law enforcement powers. Some American stock exchanges stayed closed for the rest of the week following the attack, and posted enormous losses upon reopening, especially in the airline and insurance industries. The destruction of billions of dollars' worth of office space caused serious damage to the economy of Lower Manhattan.


    oh and remember this last one was before the War on Terrorism started, but hey who am i to point to facts .... hmmm gotta love the net..
    you think I don't know that terrorist committed atrocities? This discussion is about diminishing the threat of terrorism, not listing attacks. America's 'War on Terrorism' and our policies before 9/11 have done nothing but help make the world a more dangerous place for American's IMO. We need a better approach. One that doesn't involve being the catalyst for the terrorist recruiting process.
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    #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    but the unintended consequence is that more 'good people' turn into 'bad people' how is that gonna diminish the threat?
    I don't presuppose that as the result, as I know you do.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8.    #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i think, not postive oh wait,, here is a lil posting,,

    Background: Four heavily armed Palestinian terrorists in October hijack the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, carrying more than 400 passengers and crew, off Egypt. The hijackers demand that Israel free 50 Palestinian prisoners. The terrorists kill a disabled American tourist, 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, and throw his body overboard with his wheelchair. After a two-day drama, the hijackers surrender in exchange for a pledge of safe passage. But when an Egyptian jet tries to fly the hijackers to freedom, U.S. Navy F-14 fighters intercept it and force it to land in Sicily. The terrorists are taken into custody by Italian authorities. Counter- terrorist units from the U.S responded, including elements of Delta Force and SEAL Team Six, however the situation was resolved before an assault became necessary.

    Frankly I could care less if its American, Isreali, German, French etc etc etc, you start distingushing you will loose. Remember, while America is the face, all western nations are being threatened, or does this not compute..


    The 7 July 2005 London bombings (often referred to as 7/7) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks, upon London's public transport system during the morning rush hour. On that morning, four al-Qaeda associated militants detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession, a fourth bomb exploding an hour later on a double-decker bus in Tavistock Square. Fifty-two civilians were killed in the attacks and around 700 were injured.


    Nearly 3,000 victims and the 19 hijackers died in the attacks.[4] According to the New York State Health Department, 836 responders, including firefighters and police personnel, have died as of June 2009.[4] Among the 2,752 victims who died in the attacks on the World Trade Center were 343 firefighters and 60 police officers from New York City and the Port Authority.[5] 184 people were killed in the attacks on the Pentagon.[6] The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 70 countries.[7] In addition, there was at least one secondary death—one person was ruled by a medical examiner to have died from lung disease due to exposure to dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center.[8]

    The United States responded to the attacks by launching the War on Terror, invading Afghanistan to depose the Taliban, who had harbored al-Qaeda terrorists, and enacting the USA PATRIOT Act. Many other countries also strengthened their anti-terrorism legislation and expanded law enforcement powers. Some American stock exchanges stayed closed for the rest of the week following the attack, and posted enormous losses upon reopening, especially in the airline and insurance industries. The destruction of billions of dollars' worth of office space caused serious damage to the economy of Lower Manhattan.


    oh and remember this last one was before the War on Terrorism started, but hey who am i to point to facts .... hmmm gotta love the net..
    EXCELLENT post.
  9. #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I don't presuppose that as the result, as I know you do.
    i'm not presupposing it. I've heard their calls to arms. I've read the various intercepted recruitment messages that have been released to the media. They almost always list specific grievences involving the 'wrongful' death of Muslims.
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    #350  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i'm not presupposing it. I've heard their calls to arms. I've read the various intercepted recruitment messages that have been released to the media. They almost always list specific grievences involving the 'wrongful' death of Muslims.
    Since it's a call to arms, you'll find whatever will invoke action in those messages, regardless of what we do or don't do. Please reread my own call to action. I mentioned cutting off their communication lines, as one of the steps I feel should be taken. This may mean taking out the communicators, as well as the lines they're using.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #351  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Since it's a call to arms, you'll find whatever will invoke action in those messages, regardless of what we do or don't do. Please reread my own call to action. I mentioned cutting off their communication lines, as one of the steps I feel should be taken. This may mean taking out the communicators, as well as the lines they're using.
    i read them, and i stated i'm largely not opposed to them, but i think it will be hard (impossible) to find and eliminate the communicators without making matters worse. chances are you'll just motivate someone else to be the communicator. thus, playing into the never ending cycle.

    i think the best plan involves, discrediting the word of those communicators. they can call to arms all they want, but if no one believes them, they have no power. take away their power, their ability to pursuade, and the people will be able to remove them, with no consequense to us...

    In order to discredit their word, we need to stop playing into their trap.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 12/02/2010 at 03:36 PM.
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    #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    In order to discredit their word, we need to stop playing into their trap.
    Not that I believe that we can simply discredit their word to the people they target, but what's this trap again? All I've heard so far are some vague assertions that we're to blame for the israeli/palestinian conflict.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #353  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i read them, and i stated i'm largely not opposed to them, but i think it will be hard (impossible) to find and eliminate the communicators without making matters worse. chances are you'll just motivate someone else to be the communicator. thus, playing into the never ending cycle.

    i think the best plan involves, discrediting the word of those communicators. they can call to arms all they want, but if no one believes them, they have no power. take away their power, their ability to pursuade, and the people will be able to remove them, with no consequense to us...

    In order to discredit their word, we need to stop playing into their trap.
    So if their goal is to drive the infidels out of the arab world, we fight terrorism by giving into their demands?

    What about when they start attacking our allies in the area? do we help or avoid involvement? What about when they attack the Straight of Hormuz (where a huge percentage of the world's oil is shipped through) do we just allow it? The US is involved in the middle east for 1 reason only: We have interests there. Should we abandon those?

    Then the next question: what happens if we are attacked again despite withdrawing? Surely we cannot retaliate, for that would bring us right back to where we started.
  14. #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    you think I don't know that terrorist committed atrocities? This discussion is about diminishing the threat of terrorism, not listing attacks. America's 'War on Terrorism' and our policies before 9/11 have done nothing but help make the world a more dangerous place for American's IMO. We need a better approach. One that doesn't involve being the catalyst for the terrorist recruiting process.
    My point was, that prior to this, with no American troops on the ground, the attacks happened anyway. Prior to the 9/11 attack, the US was viewed by most middle east nations as being fair. The attacks on Americans happened anyway, as well as many other western countries. Policies are Policies, if the US gave to Isreal, they also gave to many middle eastern countries. These wack a moles even attacked middle eastern govts for supposed slights.
    I look at it this way, a rabid dog no matter who it bites needs to be put down. The sooner the better. The only real difference between then and now, is the size of the attacks by these wack jobs. Instead of a couple its now a couple of hundred or couple of thousand.
    Now I have one for you, its a question, lets say the US pulls out, completely, no support for Isreal, none, no support for Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, etc etc etc,, all your present allies in the middle east, and these wack a mole get a bomb from say Pakistan, in fact get control of the whole damn works of them. What do you do then? What do you do when they start lobbing nukes at this country or that country? What do you do if they smuggle in one to one of the western countries, heck into the states, and set it off. What then?
    i cant wait for your response on this one..
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  15. #355  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Not that I believe that we can simply discredit their word to the people they target, but what's this trap again? All I've heard so far are some vague assertions that we're to blame for the israeli/palestinian conflict.
    their trap is to bait us into using force, then using the death of non combatants as fuel for their cause.

    I never said we are to BLAME for the israeli/palestinian conflict. I said our stance towards and our actions regarding it have had the side effect of fueling hatred towards americans.
  16. #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    So if their goal is to drive the infidels out of the arab world, we fight terrorism by giving into their demands?

    What about when they start attacking our allies in the area? do we help or avoid involvement? What about when they attack the Straight of Hormuz (where a huge percentage of the world's oil is shipped through) do we just allow it? The US is involved in the middle east for 1 reason only: We have interests there. Should we abandon those?

    Then the next question: what happens if we are attacked again despite withdrawing? Surely we cannot retaliate, for that would bring us right back to where we started.
    1) we should be spending a lot more time and money into looking into ways to reduce our dependancy on resources in tfrom that area. Instead we waste billions of dollars and countless lives fighting an unwinnable battle that only makes us less safe

    2) how do you know they would attack us despite us withdrawing? As i said earlier, success depends on discrediting the word of extremist leaders. If the good people of the area had more influence and control, it would have the side effect of making an attack on us much less likely.
  17. #357  
    you must not be old enough to remember all the planes that were hi-jacked in the US and other countries. Or the Iran hostage crisis, etc. They have to have an enemy to keep their followers in a lather. They attacked us and anyone else they thought could serve their purpose.
  18. #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    My point was, that prior to this, with no American troops on the ground, the attacks happened anyway. Prior to the 9/11 attack, the US was viewed by most middle east nations as being fair. The attacks on Americans happened anyway, as well as many other western countries. Policies are Policies, if the US gave to Isreal, they also gave to many middle eastern countries. These wack a moles even attacked middle eastern govts for supposed slights.
    I look at it this way, a rabid dog no matter who it bites needs to be put down. The sooner the better. The only real difference between then and now, is the size of the attacks by these wack jobs. Instead of a couple its now a couple of hundred or couple of thousand.
    Now I have one for you, its a question, lets say the US pulls out, completely, no support for Isreal, none, no support for Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, etc etc etc,, all your present allies in the middle east, and these wack a mole get a bomb from say Pakistan, in fact get control of the whole damn works of them. What do you do then? What do you do when they start lobbing nukes at this country or that country? What do you do if they smuggle in one to one of the western countries, heck into the states, and set it off. What then?
    i cant wait for your response on this one..
    i want us to stop allowing the terrorist message to be effective, by giving them fuel for their argument. this will allow the good people in the area regain control on their own accord. then we wouldnt have to worry about them securing and lobbing nukes.
  19. #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    1) we should be spending a lot more time and money into looking into ways to reduce our dependancy on resources in tfrom that area. Instead we waste billions of dollars and countless lives fighting an unwinnable battle that only makes us less safe

    2) how do you know they would attack us despite us withdrawing? As i said earlier, success depends on discrediting the word of extremist leaders. If the good people of the area had more influence and control, it would have the side effect of making an attack on us much less likely.
    But you are not addressing the issues I stated. You can hope that your approach would be effective, but our President cannot change policy on hope alone, they have to account for all sorts of contingencies. So:

    what happens if we get attacked after withdrawing?
    What happens if it takes another 25 years for alternative energy to become viable, meanwhile our companies cannot be globally competitive because we cannot get cheap oil from our allies that we just abandoned?
    What happens if we create terrorists from Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan who are angry with us because they risked a lot on forging alliances with a Western nation only to have us abandon them?
    What happens if we continue to be attacked merely because we don't allow sharia law to govern in Muslim neighborhoods here in the US (or should we just allow this to appease them)?
  20. #360  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Not that I believe that we can simply discredit their word to the people they target, but what's this trap again? All I've heard so far are some vague assertions that we're to blame for the israeli/palestinian conflict.
    I think the vague assertions said the US was totally to blame for the partion of Palestine. Something that most of the nations of the time voted for, including the USSR China Britan France etc etc.. oh and he missed the fact that the US revoked its agreement when the war started, placed an arms embargo on the whole works of them.. In fact it was the USSR and the Warsaw pact nations that actually did the arming of the Arab armies, what he fails to realize is that this was the time of the Cold War, it was the start of the proxie wars by the west and the east. Considering what the US had to loose at the time, ie OIL, they walked away. So did much of the Western World. But hey who am I to stand in the way of facts. lol
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