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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    see: the existence of israel, the invasion of iraq.

    remember they see it as an attack on islam, not an attack on a specific state. Besides supply Israel with so much military tech labels us as their enemy as well...
    Wow, nice leap in logic. So there was no aggression by us to Israel? Or Palestine? But somehow Iraq is counted as such? Man, you're losing me.

    As for military tech, it's been us that have learned much from the Israeli's. They're not the helpless child some make them out to be. I think there's much more to learn from them, especially regarding how to screen for terrorists in airports without humiliating everyone with pat downs.

    (he shoots! he scores! he brings it back to op topic!)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2.    #282  
  3. #283  
    I have been through security in the tel aviv airport. It's faster but also much more secure.
  4. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #284  
    Everyone keeps using the Holocaust as an excuse for Israel's existence, but Zionism existed long before that. Since the Age of Enlightenment there's been a push for Jews to go back to Israel.

    I have nothing against them being there, I have something against the inequality that the UN and the rest of the world pushed, causing Palestine to be a ghost of its former self.
    The two state solution was a problem to begin with, giving the Jews more than half the land when they were less than 30% of the population at the time. The Palestinians resisted, violence broke out, and here we are today. The US and Europe (Too lazy to look up specific countries) just keep feeding the fire by giving Israel billions of dollars worth of military aid. Inequality exists there, and Israel is open about anti-Palestinian laws they've passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ahh, so please show us the glut of oil we've seen from these occupying efforts.... the huge drop in gas prices? Booms in oil company stocks?

    Show me ANY real or anedotal evidence that we're there for oil, please.
    Record profits for oil companies. But even my neo-conservative father admits that Iraq wasn't about helping the people. He says it was the contracting jobs, which I don't disagree with, but I feel that's a secondary reason compared to oil exploration and control.
    Peace, Freedom, Prosperity.

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  5. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    ok, and lets let the waring tribes in rawanda determine there own destiny, which was butchering hundreds of thousands of women and children.

    and don't we all wish that we had stayed out of WWII, let the germans and french determine their own destiny?

    and the arabs? They NEVER had any war there between any arab nations in the thousands of years before america was discovered.

    THAT, my friends, is how one uses revisionist history to make a case for change!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    ps, I am not defending our foreign policy. I am trying to keep facts on the table, learn from history, and refute the idea of islationism as a valid foreign policy.
    I didn't suggest Isolationism, and I'm pretty sure no one else has either.
    I'm against war. I think more often then not it causes more problems than it solves.
    I think stopping genocide is one of the only reasons I'd be ok with war. And don't say Iraq was about genocide, because religious cleansing existed even after Saddam was removed and we were in power.

    WWI probably could have been avoided, but WWII was not the same case. Japan was slaughtering Chinese, Germany had the Holocaust, I think the US should have declared war on the Axis sooner in the second world war.
    (BTW, I think that if WWI didn't happen, or was dealt with properly, then WWII wouldn't have happened).
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  6. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    We're moving this discussion towards "What did US do to deserve the terrorist threat".
    I for one don't like that. I think we can agree the answer is "Nothing". No one deserves this.

    But perhaps we do need to find out what terrorists think to somehow get to a structural solution (while chopping their heads off).
    +1 to this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    occupy the middle east??!!?? umm huh,, last i checked the numbers of troops left in Iraq is dropping quickly,, to have troops stationed in different countries, ie bases,, is not an occupying force. There is a distinct difference between stationed troops and an occupying force.. some one here said something about .. after the first iraq war we occupied Saudia Arabia..??!!??? again HUH.. Being invited to stay by a govt is not an occupying force.. This is not semantics, they are distinctly different. You can say the west/allies occupied Germany after WWII.. that changed over the years.. Afghanistan has an occupying force, at the behest of the elected govt. ummm also no oil in Afghanistan to speak of.. lots of poppies,, some natural resources, actually quite a bit of raw resources.. but no oil.
    So outside of a few thousand troops in iraq, and the troops in the Afghan region what other force is "occupying" the middle east?
    Couple of points:
    Iraq has 50,000 troops still in it, and thousands more private contractors (mercenaries) hired by the government. The embassy the US maintains there is the largest embassy in the world.
    That is not a withdrawal in my opinion, especially if the troops that actually are moved are just being moved to Afghanistan or Kuwait.
    We also have troops unofficially carrying out attacks in Pakistan and Yemen (I don't know any official numbers here, but they're carrying out night raids and airstrikes).

    BTW, the war in Afghanistan is a loss. Troop surge isn't going to work, I'm calling it.
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    Everyone keeps using the Holocaust as an excuse for Israel's existence, but Zionism existed long before that.
    I don't. You can maybe thank Great Britain and the huge problem with what to do with the many refugees following WWII in as possible reasons. Why does there need to be an "excuse"? That was their original home, after all.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #288  
    There needs to be an excuse, because not only did they displace Palestinians illegally and inhumanely, but Israel has become mini neoconservative USA in the middle of Sharia Law Islam, thinking war is the best way to solve problems.

    Under [the logic that jewish people were there first so they deserve the land]....
    Why can't the world force the United States ti displace all the Caucasian and other non-native invaders out of the US and give the majority of the land back to the Native Americans? This displacement happened more recently, and the government who actually did the displacing is still in control. And it didn't happen two millennia ago.
    Last edited by JLegacy; 11/30/2010 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Rephrased who it was addressing.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    There needs to be an excuse, because not only did they displace Palestinians illegally and inhumanely, but Israel has become mini neoconservative USA in the middle of Sharia Law Islam, thinking war is the best way to solve problems.

    Under your logic....
    Why can't the world force the United States ti displace all the Caucasian and other non-native invaders out of the US and give the majority of the land back to the Native Americans? This displacement happened more recently, and the government who actually did the displacing is still in control. And it didn't happen two millennia ago.
    That's not my logic. Sorry. Must be somebody else. You see to be under the impression I was taking a side or setting up an argument. It was simply a comment.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #290  
    Ok, sorry. Seemed like you were taking a side in the argument.

    Fixed who the post was addressing.
    Peace, Freedom, Prosperity.

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  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by JLegacy View Post
    +1 to this post.


    Couple of points:
    Iraq has 50,000 troops still in it, and thousands more private contractors (mercenaries) hired by the government. The embassy the US maintains there is the largest embassy in the world.
    That is not a withdrawal in my opinion, especially if the troops that actually are moved are just being moved to Afghanistan or Kuwait.
    We also have troops unofficially carrying out attacks in Pakistan and Yemen (I don't know any official numbers here, but they're carrying out night raids and airstrikes).

    BTW, the war in Afghanistan is a loss. Troop surge isn't going to work, I'm calling it.
    hmm 50 k in troops, and that is being moved down in number daily. As to the mercs, well if the Iraq govt wants em there, than so be it, they are paying the bill. your right it is your opinion, as to moving them well last thats all fine and dandy, however i do believe they are planning to remove them next year. Kuwait lolol, hmm so you are now deciding foregin policy for Kuwait? if that govt wants US troops there, so be it. Comon think about this stuff before you post it.
    unofficial attacks, hmmm i read the same wiki leaks stuff, seems to me that while there is no OFFICIAL ok there is quiet approval of this by both govts. You said you are against war, so am I, however, that changes when someone threatens me or mine, it changes a lot. and ya, even though I am old, i would put on combat boots and do what is needed.. Im not that old ..
    you completely missed the point about the whole british palestine thing back in 47-48, the un said no, the british said no, the jewish population of Europe and frankly much of the middle east said screw you, and went anyway.

    i love the way you try to turn this around, its ok for the arab world to demand no more Jews in our country, but dont dare say no more X in my country.. kinda hypocritical. oh an by the way,, while the population of jews was not large at the time of partition, it was there none the less, i might point out, that the jewish refugees from around the world basicly did what the arabs did, just moved in. The arab govts of the time saw that the continued influx of jews to palestine would eventually outstrip them in population. I guess thats why the called for and continue to call for the total extermination of the Jews in Palestine. Hamas anyone, how about the prez of Iran, Osama bin Ladin, etc etc.. you really have to read more...
    Last edited by xForsaken; 12/01/2010 at 09:10 AM.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  12. #292  
    JLegacy, i'm inclined to agree with you...
  13. #293  
    JLegacy, I assume then you think that funding to the PA should be cut off as well?
  14. #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow, nice leap in logic. So there was no aggression by us to Israel? Or Palestine? But somehow Iraq is counted as such? Man, you're losing me.

    As for military tech, it's been us that have learned much from the Israeli's. They're not the helpless child some make them out to be. I think there's much more to learn from them, especially regarding how to screen for terrorists in airports without humiliating everyone with pat downs.

    (he shoots! he scores! he brings it back to op topic!)
    it's not my leap in logic, it's the logic that terrorist use to recruit. Wether or not you agree with it or understand it doesn't make it any less real.

    there IS aggression by US in he middle east. We Do support Israel, who aggressive against Palenstine. So in their eyes, were are paritially responsible for that agression. Why are you lost again?
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 12/01/2010 at 10:43 AM.
  15. #295  
    One way to stop terrorism is for Hollywood to stop sensationalizing it!
    Case in point:

    The power of the media is immense, especially when it comes to conflicts. It is not difficult to make your own side look like heroes, no matter what atrocities they commit. Consider, for example, the Death Star.

    In the first Star Wars movie the rebels steal some plans and then destroy the Death Star space station. A quick web search reveals how many people were actually on the Death Star at the time:

    265,675 Station crew
    52,276 gunners
    607,360 troops
    25,984 Stormtroopers
    42,782 ship support staff
    167,216 pilots and support crew

    That’s over a million people, and that’s only a conservative estimate. A million people. Excuse me, just how ******* cold-blooded are these rebels? They kill a million people and then fly back to their planet and then they give out medals?

    What about the million mothers all over the Empire who lose their children, most of whom were probably conscripted? Not to mention the people who are just doing their jobs: the cleaners, and programmers, and dishwashers, and pizza chefs, and all the prisoners in the holding cells. All suddenly dead, because of upper-class twits like Princess Leia, and her lofty ideas about restoring the “old order” where her family and people like them were the ones in charge.

    So the rebels think this is the way to win popular opinion – to kill a million people? Many of the Death Star military who died were probably soldiers during the old Republic and simply became the new military when the Emperor took over. And the cold-blooded *******s kill them too – thousands of their own ex-colleagues – and then they have a ******* party?

    Luke Skywalker is a terrorist, guilty of massive crimes against humanity. And all of the rebels are terrorists, pure and simple, by any definition you care to use. These guys do not agree with the present democratically elected government as they are far too secular for their tastes, and so they go around recruiting farm boys like Skywalker and his buddies as X-wing cannon fodder to fight and restore the ancient theocracy and the “old ways”.

    And is the Empire “evil”? Well from what we see in Epiosde 3, Palpatine appears to have been democratically elected. Sure, his regime has a fascist tinge to it, but all of the military we see in the original movies are efficient and honourable, and not at all corrupt. And just try and find a military without a fascist tinge to it.

    And what did this “Evil Empire” displace? A society managed as some kind of new-age feudal system, where an accident of birth (in this case the ability to be a Jedi) guarantees you rights and privileges above all others, as well as full legal immunity. The Jedi seem to be above the law, answer to nobody and are only interested in having their religion replace all other ideologies and use it to “keep the peace”or, in other words, rule everybody forever.

    It truly amazes me how these bellicose fundamentalists can be depicted as “good” and then everybody goes along with it and spends 3 movies clapping their adventures. Me included. Aren’t we all terribly terribly smart?

    (taken from [url= Star Whitewash « Paddy K[/url])
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledge007 View Post
    One way to stop terrorism is for Hollywood to stop sensationalizing it!
    Case in point:

    The power of the media is immense, especially when it comes to conflicts. It is not difficult to make your own side look like heroes, no matter what atrocities they commit. Consider, for example, the Death Star.

    In the first Star Wars movie the rebels steal some plans and then destroy the Death Star space station. A quick web search reveals how many people were actually on the Death Star at the time:

    265,675 Station crew
    52,276 gunners
    607,360 troops
    25,984 Stormtroopers
    42,782 ship support staff
    167,216 pilots and support crew

    That’s over a million people, and that’s only a conservative estimate. A million people. Excuse me, just how ******* cold-blooded are these rebels? They kill a million people and then fly back to their planet and then they give out medals?

    What about the million mothers all over the Empire who lose their children, most of whom were probably conscripted? Not to mention the people who are just doing their jobs: the cleaners, and programmers, and dishwashers, and pizza chefs, and all the prisoners in the holding cells. All suddenly dead, because of upper-class twits like Princess Leia, and her lofty ideas about restoring the “old order” where her family and people like them were the ones in charge.

    So the rebels think this is the way to win popular opinion – to kill a million people? Many of the Death Star military who died were probably soldiers during the old Republic and simply became the new military when the Emperor took over. And the cold-blooded *******s kill them too – thousands of their own ex-colleagues – and then they have a ******* party?

    Luke Skywalker is a terrorist, guilty of massive crimes against humanity. And all of the rebels are terrorists, pure and simple, by any definition you care to use. These guys do not agree with the present democratically elected government as they are far too secular for their tastes, and so they go around recruiting farm boys like Skywalker and his buddies as X-wing cannon fodder to fight and restore the ancient theocracy and the “old ways”.

    And is the Empire “evil”? Well from what we see in Epiosde 3, Palpatine appears to have been democratically elected. Sure, his regime has a fascist tinge to it, but all of the military we see in the original movies are efficient and honourable, and not at all corrupt. And just try and find a military without a fascist tinge to it.

    And what did this “Evil Empire” displace? A society managed as some kind of new-age feudal system, where an accident of birth (in this case the ability to be a Jedi) guarantees you rights and privileges above all others, as well as full legal immunity. The Jedi seem to be above the law, answer to nobody and are only interested in having their religion replace all other ideologies and use it to “keep the peace”or, in other words, rule everybody forever.

    It truly amazes me how these bellicose fundamentalists can be depicted as “good” and then everybody goes along with it and spends 3 movies clapping their adventures. Me included. Aren’t we all terribly terribly smart?

    (taken from [url= Star Whitewash « Paddy K[/url])
    Although I do appreciate your liberal borrowing from the movie Clerks; you should note that after the release of the 3 prequel movies, we now know that the stormtroopers were comprised of clones. I think that might apply to pilots as well but I am not too sure. No mothers will weep...
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    it's not my leap in logic, it's the logic that terrorist use to recruit. Wether or not you agree with it or understand it doesn't make it any less real.

    there IS aggression by US in he middle east. We Do support Israel, who aggressive against Palenstine. So in their eyes, were are paritially responsible for that agression. Why are you lost again?
    Aggressive against Palestine.. hmmm who has been attacking who here.. outside of the last lil one with that wacko in southern Lebenon, its only been Arab nations attacking Isreal, and than only in retaliation for the kidnap and murder of several check point guards.. its been Hamas, and prior to that PLO firing rockets from schools and hospital and some poor b.... of a farmer fields. hmmm Munich olympics anyone.. I can pull this sort of stuff out all day long. No, Isreal is not with out some blame, but to blame them entirely is patently wrong. Does this mean, by your reasoning, that we are at fault for training and arming say South Koreans, for the attacks by North Korea? nawwwww couldnt be.. or how about the very well videoed beheading of that western oil worker I think... yup.. we are to blame for it all.. To blame the US for doing business with them is also wrong, if one was to follow that logic, the arming of Hezbolla by Russia via Syria is also wrong. I know lets take away all their toys, stop sending money to build schools, hospitals, water treatment plants etc etc.. That should solve it right??? But that, as micael has said, means no money or aid for Palestine as well.. it all ends,
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  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #298  
    Come on people. This is obviously . Whats the big deal?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Aggressive against Palestine.. hmmm who has been attacking who here.. outside of the last lil one with that wacko in southern Lebenon, its only been Arab nations attacking Isreal, and than only in retaliation for the kidnap and murder of several check point guards.. its been Hamas, and prior to that PLO firing rockets from schools and hospital and some poor b.... of a farmer fields. hmmm Munich olympics anyone.. I can pull this sort of stuff out all day long. No, Isreal is not with out some blame, but to blame them entirely is patently wrong. Does this mean, by your reasoning, that we are at fault for training and arming say South Koreans, for the attacks by North Korea? nawwwww couldnt be.. or how about the very well videoed beheading of that western oil worker I think... yup.. we are to blame for it all.. To blame the US for doing business with them is also wrong, if one was to follow that logic, the arming of Hezbolla by Russia via Syria is also wrong. I know lets take away all their toys, stop sending money to build schools, hospitals, water treatment plants etc etc.. That should solve it right??? But that, as micael has said, means no money or aid for Palestine as well.. it all ends,
    look. I think you misunderstand my position. I do not sympathizing with Arab nations. I do not condone terrorist attacks or violence for that matter. I'm merely attempting to view the conflict through their eyes in an attempt to find a way to diminish terrorism against americans. What you call the Arab Nations attacking Israel, they call neccisary retalliation.

    Likewise, I don't 'blame' Israel for the terrorist attacks on America, or middle eastern conflict. I just realize how america's role in the creation of the jewish state has made our country less safe. I don't blame Israel, I blame america's involvement.

    In summary, I recognize that hostility between Jews and Muslims in the area has been there and will continue to be there. That is unfortunate. But I also realize that the US intervening there has made american citizens a target for terrorism. The key to diminishing the terrorist threat to America is not bringing peace to the middle east, it's letting them handle it themselves.

    Prior to our involvement there, they were no threat to us.
  20. #300  
    prior to our involvement there was no television to know america existed. Just sayin.

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