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  1. #241  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Certainly there's a good possibility that oil's a factor in strategic involvement. Whether the US should get involved in every single travesty is another debate.

    But it's also very easy to see everything through the 'for oil lens'. In fact, there's many factors to world conflicts and struggles, and they are not all directly caused by US greed. I've heard that other countries have similar hang ups.
    I would love to lose my 'war for oil lense' but when you look at all that is going on in the world, you can't help but wonder why, for the last 70 years, the US has been so interested in the Middle East. What makes them, and has been makng them so important? We focused on them before they had the means to carry out 911, before they had the potential to be a nuclear threat... Oil is the common denominator...
  2. #242  
    we are also protecting our friend Israel. Before we did that, 4 counties attacked them simultaneously.
  3. #243  
    ps, I am not defending our foreign policy. I am trying to keep facts on the table, learn from history, and refute the idea of islationism as a valid foreign policy.
  4. #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I have the same policy for the school bully. Threaten me and punch him in the nose. He won't threaten again.
    now give ur analogy some perspective. You walk into the 'bully's' house. He's 1/20 as powerful as you. You Tell him the way his household is run is wrong. He says get out or he'll punch you in the face. You get into a brawl, but he keeps on using his house against you, like macaulay culkin. Oh by the way, his family's farm feeds your family.

    your 'approach' hasn't worked for the last 70 years... What makes you think it'll work now.

    It definitely doesn't work when the 'bully' sees you as the bully..
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 11/30/2010 at 07:55 AM.
  5. #245  
    Hey guys, this thread is getting antagonistic. Not my cup of tea.
    OP states "what is the best approach toward diminishing the threat of terrorism?", not what is the best approach toward annoying eachother while discussing US foreign policy, alleged oil wars, historical facts, and Dems vs Reps.
    Hasta la vista.
  6. #246  
    ok dad.
  7. #247  
    An open topic like this - would most definitely lead to all sorts of opinions ~ which I would say is understandable.

    Members are only discussing matters of opinions - nothing more, nothing less.
  8. #248  
    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH View Post
    An open topic like this - would most definitely lead to all sorts of opinions ~ which I would say is understandable.

    Members are only discussing matters of opinions - nothing more, nothing less.
    If we didn't have you to state the obvious, we'd be lost.
    Thanks
  9. #249  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Hey guys, this thread is getting antagonistic. Not my cup of tea.
    OP states "what is the best approach toward diminishing the threat of terrorism?", not what is the best approach toward annoying eachother while discussing US foreign policy, alleged oil wars, historical facts, and Dems vs Reps.
    Hasta la vista.
    all of those things are important to the discussion. Some of us believe that America being too involved causes the attacks, so less involvement would diminish it. Some of us believe that we need to be involved more harshly. Both sides are using history, and foreign policy and the like to support their opinion... What did you expect...
  10. #250  
    but we all agree webOS is awesome, don't we?
  11.    #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    but we all agree webOS is awesome, don't we?
  12. #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    If we didn't have you to state the obvious, we'd be lost.
    Thanks
    You're welcome - and it's not the obvious.. Its called "Common Sense"
    Take care now.
  13. #253  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I have the same policy for the school bully. Threaten me and punch him in the nose. He won't threaten again.
    Unfortunately for us, this "school bully" has a lot more conviction, determination, nothing to lose(Allah on my side) attitude, previous fight statistics vs. super-power Russia 1-0. Simply beating him up isn't (hasn't) working, is it? How many more years is it going to take? Just in recent history, 10 years of Soviets, the last 10 years, there's no score, no gauge, no clear-cut winner, this is an open-ended war, with other than Coalition sides, no clear opponents. So unless we're ok with that, it's never going to end. Is a line going to be drawn where enough is enough, or we'll just keep spending trillions of dollars halfway across the world, while people are hungry, jobless, homeless, dying in hospitals in our own countries?

    That really boggles my mind that we feel the need to save the rest of the world, but we can't even properly look after our own.
    Last edited by sledge007; 11/30/2010 at 08:22 AM.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #254  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    I would love to lose my 'war for oil lense' but when you look at all that is going on in the world, you can't help but wonder why, for the last 70 years, the US has been so interested in the Middle East. What makes them, and has been makng them so important? We focused on them before they had the means to carry out 911, before they had the potential to be a nuclear threat... Oil is the common denominator...
    I did not say that oil wasn't of vital interest to the US. Obviously we want to position things in the best way to allow for access and lower pricing. It literally fuels our economy, which allows us to feed ourselves and our families. It's all tied together, Mhunterjr. It's not all about evil greed. There's a practical side to this story that those that like to be angry with the US ignore.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I did not say that oil wasn't of vital interest to the US. Obviously we want to position things in the best way to allow for access and lower pricing. It literally fuels our economy, which allows us to feed ourselves and our families. It's all tied together, Mhunterjr. It's not all about evil greed. There's a practical side to this story that those that like to be angry with the US ignore.
    right. But many of us believe it would be less costly (cash, lives, diplomatic standing) and more effective to lessen our dependence on oil than it is to force people to be our friends. Since the creation of israel gas prices have only gone up.

    spend our money on science and not war. We've tried war, and it hasn't worked...
  16. #256  
    lol wow, face it, no matter what, if it isnt Isreal, its oil, its something,, no matter what the west does, they will come for us. if the west withdraws from all the middle east except isreal, we will get blamed anyway. Some here have said that isreal should not have been formed, that is part of the problem,, sorry, if the UN hadnt of done it the jewish population there would have done it anyway... period.. the whole area had been and continued to be in flux and turmoil since the end of WWI with the collapse of the Ottoman empire. No matter what we do, yes it is a collective "we", they will find a reason to come at us. For either past events or present slight or more likely than not precieved slights.
    Iran, and Pakistan scare the hell out of me, probably more than North Korea. Osama and his followers, are very likely to use a bomb, to teach us in the west a lesson. I personally do not think they have enough control of the different groups attached to that whole movement to stop the nuking of a major western city.
    If that happens, say to the U.S., I would not want to be down range from where that bomb originated. I am not saying that it would be justified, I am saying the call for retribution would be huge. Impossible to ignore. Would it spiral out of control?, quite likely.
    The Osama group would justifiy it with " this is retaliation for all the crimes and evil that country X has done to us". As sledge put it, this school bully has a lot of conviction on its side, plus, Osama and the like would like nothing better to go back to yester year, where people were intentionally kept in the dark and in absolute fear.
    If an attack like this happens, no matter what country it happens to, I would hope that the response is well thought out, and not a knee jerk response. I am not entirely sure, that the average non radical Muslim will side with the country/west in the event of a major attack on a western city. As some reports have stated, many average Muslims are starting to be afraid of their next door neighbor, as they do not have a clue where they're sympathies are in regard to Osama and what not. While I agree that it is a small group of radicals, that group is growing out of pure momentum, like a snow ball on a steep slope... as it picks up speed it keeps getting bigger and bigger, many will join due to the pure need to survive.

    Things are gonna get interesting at best, hopefully not insanely interesting, I am too damned old to wear combat boots..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    lol wow, face it, no matter what, if it isnt Isreal, its oil, its something,, no matter what the west does, they will come for us. if the west withdraws from all the middle east except isreal, we will get blamed anyway. Some here have said that isreal should not have been formed, that is part of the problem,, sorry, if the UN hadnt of done it the jewish population there would have done it anyway... period.. the whole area had been and continued to be in flux and turmoil since the end of WWI with the collapse of the Ottoman empire. No matter what we do, yes it is a collective "we", they will find a reason to come at us. For either past events or present slight or more likely than not precieved slights.
    Iran, and Pakistan scare the hell out of me, probably more than North Korea. Osama and his followers, are very likely to use a bomb, to teach us in the west a lesson. I personally do not think they have enough control of the different groups attached to that whole movement to stop the nuking of a major western city.
    If that happens, say to the U.S., I would not want to be down range from where that bomb originated. I am not saying that it would be justified, I am saying the call for retribution would be huge. Impossible to ignore. Would it spiral out of control?, quite likely.
    The Osama group would justifiy it with " this is retaliation for all the crimes and evil that country X has done to us". As sledge put it, this school bully has a lot of conviction on its side, plus, Osama and the like would like nothing better to go back to yester year, where people were intentionally kept in the dark and in absolute fear.
    If an attack like this happens, no matter what country it happens to, I would hope that the response is well thought out, and not a knee jerk response. I am not entirely sure, that the average non radical Muslim will side with the country/west in the event of a major attack on a western city. As some reports have stated, many average Muslims are starting to be afraid of their next door neighbor, as they do not have a clue where they're sympathies are in regard to Osama and what not. While I agree that it is a small group of radicals, that group is growing out of pure momentum, like a snow ball on a steep slope... as it picks up speed it keeps getting bigger and bigger, many will join due to the pure need to survive.

    Things are gonna get interesting at best, hopefully not insanely interesting, I am too damned old to wear combat boots..
    if the jewish people would have done it themselves, then so be it. That conflict should be between the Jews and the Islamic states, no one in the UN had any business intervening. That's why they attack the west. Atleast we wouldn't have people attacking us for it, had we stayed out of it. Israel is a problem. Oil is a problem. Osama, pakistan etc, are all problems BECAUSE of oil and israel... Take middle eastern oil and israel out of America's pool of interests, and we will dimish the threat of terrorism. Period.
  18. #258  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    if the jewish people would have done it themselves, then so be it. That conflict should be between the Jews and the Islamic states, no one in the UN had any business intervening. That's why they attack the west. Atleast we wouldn't have people attacking us for it, had we stayed out of it. Israel is a problem. Oil is a problem. Osama, pakistan etc, are all problems BECAUSE of oil and israel... Take middle eastern oil and israel out of America's pool of interests, and we will dimish the threat of terrorism. Period.
    i see your point, however you forget about the lil issue of what happened with the jewish population of Europe just a few years prior. I could not be ignored, in any way shape or form. The numbers of displaced jews was huge, they were not going to stay in the country of origin. Many came to the states and canada, and in turn, ended up in Isreal anyway, for a myriad of reasons. Oil, well oil is oil, as I have said in past posts, if someone comes up with a viable cheap alternative to oil, the middle east will still blame us. Now however it will be for not sharing our wealth with them.
    I would suggest, if tomorrow, water became as big an issue as oil, and folks it is going to be even bigger than oil, places like Canada are going to be the new rich nation on this planet. The middle east has little to no water, much of Europe has maxed out their supply, the States, well they have drained the worlds largest aquifier. My home town on the North Coast of BC, gets about 17 feet of rain a year,,, yup 17 feet, and its not the wettest spot on the coast. lol...
    Back to the topic of the middle east, this place has changed hands more often than everyone here has changed their shorts in the last 10 years. If it is not being invaded by one group its being invaded by another.. From the time of recorded history, it has continually been under attack. Be it Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, etc etc etc,, in between, the jewish population was there, from long before the advent of the Muslim religion to present day they have been there. Now who really owns Isreal??
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  19. #259  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i see your point, however you forget about the lil issue of what happened with the jewish population of Europe just a few years prior. I could not be ignored, in any way shape or form. The numbers of displaced jews was huge, they were not going to stay in the country of origin. Many came to the states and canada, and in turn, ended up in Isreal anyway, for a myriad of reasons. Oil, well oil is oil, as I have said in past posts, if someone comes up with a viable cheap alternative to oil, the middle east will still blame us. Now however it will be for not sharing our wealth with them.
    I would suggest, if tomorrow, water became as big an issue as oil, and folks it is going to be even bigger than oil, places like Canada are going to be the new rich nation on this planet. The middle east has little to no water, much of Europe has maxed out their supply, the States, well they have drained the worlds largest aquifier. My home town on the North Coast of BC, gets about 17 feet of rain a year,,, yup 17 feet, and its not the wettest spot on the coast. lol...
    Back to the topic of the middle east, this place has changed hands more often than everyone here has changed their shorts in the last 10 years. If it is not being invaded by one group its being invaded by another.. From the time of recorded history, it has continually been under attack. Be it Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, etc etc etc,, in between, the jewish population was there, from long before the advent of the Muslim religion to present day they have been there. Now who really owns Isreal??
    i'm not ignoring the jews displaced as a result of a holocaust. I'm simply critical of the idea the forging a jewish state in a location that belonged to someone else is a good idea. If the jews were some how able to do it themselves, the so be it. Hey, that's how the US was formed. But when you look the fact that the entire western world bullied the islamic states out of their land, it's no surprise that they would want it back. The argument that jews have a right to it because they were there first has no bearing. As you stated, that place has changed has plenty of times. But it was due to the people choosing their own destiny. Being conquered is one thing. But for the UN to just come in and create a state... That's wrong...

    I agree with you on the notion of a valuable alternative to oil. But all of the money we waste fighting a war we cant win, could be spent on education and research into viable alernatives.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 11/30/2010 at 10:35 AM.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #260  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i'm not ignoring the jews displaced as a result of a holocaust. I'm simply critical of the idea the forging a jewish state in a location that belonged to someone else is a good idea.
    That area has gone back and forth for millenia. You can't just draw a line in the sand and say it was so and so's fault. Both sides are the problem. Depending on your ideological leanings, you pick a side. But that doesn't help anything, and the cycle goes on forever.

    Maybe everyone should step back and somehow start fresh? Wishful thinking, I know.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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