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  1. #181  
    There's a difference between sticking your head in the sand, and minding your own business. People see the US in a negative light because we intervene. Period. Whether we are doing it for honorable reasons or not is besides the point. It's making Americans unsafe.

    I see mention of the hospitals and schools we build in afghanistan. If they wanna blow us up for building hospitals and schools, then perhaps we should take our hospitals and schools else where. Let them build their own. I can think of plenty of nations in Africa that would accept some infrastructure without drawing blood, why don't we intervene there? Or better yet why do we work on our own education system instead of having Americans die for theirs?

    It's time we all realize our involvement in the middle east has nothing to do with saving people from an oppressive dictator. Nothing to do with protecting Americans from terrorism. It comes down to two topics, valuable resources and the forging of strategic alliances. Recources and alliances that the powers that be deem more important american lives and tax payer dollars.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums Beta
  2.    #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    There's a difference between sticking your head in the sand, and minding your own business. People see the US in a negative light because we intervene. Period. Whether we are doing it for honorable reasons or not is besides the point. It's making Americans unsafe.

    I see mention of the hospitals and schools we build in afghanistan. If they wanna blow us up for building hospitals and schools, then perhaps we should take our hospitals and schools else where. Let them build their own. I can think of plenty of nations in Africa that would accept some infrastructure without drawing blood, why don't we intervene there? Or better yet why do we work on our own education system instead of having Americans die for theirs?

    It's time we all realize our involvement in the middle east has nothing to do with saving people from an oppressive dictator. Nothing to do with protecting Americans from terrorism. It comes down to two topics, valuable resources and the forging of strategic alliances. Recources and alliances that the powers that be deem more important american lives and tax payer dollars.[/i]
    Well said.
    I have to agree.
  3. #183  
    the west will be attacked regardless. I have said it before, here it is again, we have what they want. Hide it behind anything you like. micael is right, and as i also pointed out, go the route of quietly making sure there are numerous accidents to certain people... the resources are there to do just that.. ooopsy.. run over at a cross walk.. ooopsy.. fell off a cliff.. lol kidding.. well ok not really.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I remember reading somewhere, the current US administration has already moved in this direction, but perhaps that's just incorrect interpretation on my part.
    Wikileaks should be affirming or denying this momentarily.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    There's a difference between sticking your head in the sand, and minding your own business. People see the US in a negative light because we intervene. Period. Whether we are doing it for honorable reasons or not is besides the point. It's making Americans unsafe.

    I see mention of the hospitals and schools we build in afghanistan. If they wanna blow us up for building hospitals and schools, then perhaps we should take our hospitals and schools else where. Let them build their own. I can think of plenty of nations in Africa that would accept some infrastructure without drawing blood, why don't we intervene there? Or better yet why do we work on our own education system instead of having Americans die for theirs?

    It's time we all realize our involvement in the middle east has nothing to do with saving people from an oppressive dictator. Nothing to do with protecting Americans from terrorism. It comes down to two topics, valuable resources and the forging of strategic alliances. Recources and alliances that the powers that be deem more important american lives and tax payer dollars.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums Beta
    I'm sorry, but while I understand and empathize with your sentiment, I can't agree with what seems to be your solution.

    History clearly shows what happens when we become disengaged and withdrawn. Things do not get better, and our security only gets worse.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #186  
    If you are looking at this with any pragmatism, you'll agree that we aren't going to completely leave the middle east, we are well too ingrained there. America will always have a few strategic interests in the middle east:
    1. Oil: like it or not, oil is the lifeblood of an industrial economy. Even now, oil is cheap enough that it is not worthwhile to put substantial resources in alternative energy sources.
    2. Divided Arabs: The United States does not want a united Arab or Islamist empire. This is one real threat to the US interests in the region (see above). This puts a lot of US moves into perspective (ie. invading Iraq has the goal of putting a pro-western power next door to Iran). Therefore you might see the U.S. support Turkey now, and as Turkey gains strength, US shift support to Egypt. This is also why the US will always see supporting Israel as good strategy: Israel can be a power to counterbalance Egypt/Turkey/Iran, etc, yet Israel will always be somewhat isolated from its neighbors so never in a position to build an empire.

    So reality check: No US President is pulling out of the middle east. They won't do it economically, and therefore won't be able to do it militarily either. This is true regardless of what party or person is president, as the American generals would never condone it. (Hence Obama's campaign promise to be out of Iraq by ____ date was nonsense)

    So, we build as many hospitals and schools as we can to minimize the PRPRPR $damage$ $we$ $are$ $doing$. $We$ $do$ $our$ $best$ $to$ $stop$ $every$ $terrorist$ $attack$ $we$ $can$, $and$ $we$ $assume$ $that$ $we$ $can$ $move$ $on$ $from$ $any$ $attacks$ $that$ $are$ $successful$.
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    #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    We need to retrace our steps to well before 9/11, together with Arab nations which without exception can be considered moderate (moderate being a relative term), and possibly get to a situation where militant extremism is erradicated and peaceful co-existence is achieved.
    Remember that's a double-edged sword. We can slammed because we get involved in Middle Eastern countries but some of those very same countries would be toppled by extremist elements within their borders if it weren't for outside support. Which is better? Is it better for us to be friends and supporters of moderate governments or for us to mind our own business while extremists take over those governments?

    I'll also echo Micael's sentiments. Perhaps we need to go back to the Reagan days where the bad guys just sort of disappear and everyone looks around going "Wah happen?" Yeah, sure, everyone thinks it was the Americans but at least there was plausible deniability.

    On a side note, I certainly didn't intend to take a cheap shot earlier. I'm sorry it came across that way. Perhaps I should have just stated my point.
  8.    #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Just learned today you guys have nuclear weaponry stationed next 1 hour from where I live.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Perhaps it is time for the US to step down and become one of the countries in international missions, instead of the instigator, organizer, funder, and main player. The US is wasting way too many resources on war, compared to other nations. Perhaps as a team player, it would also gain more credibility instead of falling victim to the typical "oil war" accusations.
    China will step into our shoes soon, as our gov keeps printing money as fast as they can spend it. And I fear you may look back on the era of US dominance in finance and security with longing.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10.    #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I already thought those llamas grazing outside that building looked suspicious...
    Stereotyping llamas now?
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    Stereotyping llamas now?
    No, always.
  12. #192  
    I see some distinct similarities to the whole China thing and Japan of the 70s, 80s. Many screamed ranted raved about we were being taken over by Japan. hmmmmm didnt happen, in fact quite the reverse. As to sticking "our" heads in the sand, I would suggest that pulling in your horns is a good thing. I am not saying stop everything, I am saying only trade give money too those that wish to do so. If the Taliban and Al Quadia feel that we (we in the western nations sense) are the devil, than leave them to it. Rember they have blown up schools, churches, markets, killing hundreds, nay thousands, of their fellows. Yes it is a small portion of the total islam population. None the less, its the "squeeky wheel" that is heard around the world.
    Time to do what is right for the people of the western world, get the heck outta those two countries, in particular Afghanistan, let them do what they wish to one another. But, keep a close eye on them, there is no room to be forgiving regarding this type of person. another little line, from your bible of old, with a twist, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,,ONLY DO IT FIRST... or something like that..
    i agree llamas are awful nasty critters,, only good for eating.. an only if your starving to death.. hehehehehe mmmmmm roast llama over an open fire with orange sauce hmmmm mmm good
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  13. #193  
    [


    I'm afraid you're just a tad bit too knowledgeable when it comes to all these historical facts. (not a false compliment)[/QUOTE]
    thats cuz he is as old as the hills,, oh wait thats me.. lol
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #194  
    oil is the lifeblood of our industrial complex ok i agree with that completely,, saying that if tomorrow micael or groovy developed a dirt cheap alternative to oil that we could produce to our hearts content,, Osama and his ilk would blame us anyway.. hmm thats another thing,, I have wondered about,, why is it that Osama and crew find it ok to sell opium to us nasty devils in the west.. hmmm wonder about that..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Just learned today you guys have nuclear weaponry stationed next 1 hour from where I live.

    Actually if you look in your closet, in your garage and under your bed, you will find nukes are really far closer than one hour away ....
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Perhaps it is time for the US to step down and become one of the countries in international missions, instead of the instigator, organizer, funder, and main player. The US is wasting way too many resources on war, compared to other nations. Perhaps as a team player, it would also gain more credibility instead of falling victim to the typical "oil war" accusations.
    Isn't the UN and/or NATO supposed to be the "team?" Yet, as been proven, these leaders are corrupt. Take the Oil for Food program in Iraq, for instance...

    In addition, our "teammates" like France, Germany and Russia were going behind the backs of the UN by trading resources for oil in violation of the same resolutions they voted in favor of.

    How can the US be expected to be team players when we can't trust our teammates?
  17.    #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ... i agree llamas are awful nasty critters,, only good for eating.. an only if your starving to death.. hehehehehe mmmmmm roast llama over an open fire with orange sauce hmmmm mmm good
  18. #198  
    Yo,

    Quick question. Does it bother anyone that, as citizens of the U.S.A. we are not allowed to disagree with the government we live under to the point of beginning to speak of revolution?

    Also, we need to look at why these people hate us so much. Has anyone seen the planes we have? Some of them are friggin huge. I would be a little upset if a foreign country landed one of those things in my area and told me what to do. Why should we expect different from anyone else?

    Just because the things we fly into buildings are shaped like cruise missiles instead of planes doesn't mean everything we believe in (or are made to believe we believe in) is truth.

    Peace (really, it would be nice)
    B.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by beerbatteredben View Post
    Yo,

    Quick question. Does it bother anyone that, as citizens of the U.S.A. we are not allowed to disagree with the government we live under to the point of beginning to speak of revolution?

    Also, we need to look at why these people hate us so much. Has anyone seen the planes we have? Some of them are friggin huge. I would be a little upset if a foreign country landed one of those things in my area and told me what to do. Why should we expect different from anyone else?

    Just because the things we fly into buildings are shaped like cruise missiles instead of planes doesn't mean everything we believe in (or are made to believe we believe in) is truth.

    Peace (really, it would be nice)
    B.

    Wait, are you saying that we should be able to speak about revolution? I'm confused and depending upon the context you can speak of revolution.

    As to the rest of what you are saying, you are right, the shape of the projectile does not dictate the morality of the act. However, that is not to say there is no moral difference. It is not impossible that the United States has deliberately launched missiles at a civilian commercial building, if we have, that would certainly be morally wrong.

    Seriously not sure what you are trying to say...
  20. #200  
    In international politics, its every nation for themselves. Their are "teams" to the extent that multiple nations sometimes have overlapping policy goals and they will work together to the extent that it favors their nation's policies and to that extent only.

    "Only acting with the team" will not be helpful. The US will never be seen as "just another member of the team", if the US is there, it will always be perceived as the US acting with some support from Nations X, Y, and Z. That's the price of being a global power.
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