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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I'm not saying that they didn't face starvetion, but it obviously wasn't a roadblock to China's emergence as a world powerhouse. And trying to keep on track, IF it were, or more relative to our situation, if a lack of oil started to cause our nation to shut down, would you back our taking action to prevent it, up to and including war?
    I'm trying to stay ontopic, but you're discussing it as a possible future for the US.
    A lot of people around the world seem to think this has already taken place.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by darkzone View Post
    ^If I'm not mistaken electricity in USA is usually generated using coals and nuclear, I'm not sure what percentage, if any, uses oil.
    What insulates the wiring in our homes? How many plastic parts are in the average Leaf? What process is used to create the batteries? One thing that is often overlooked in these sorts of discussions is our extreme dependence on petroleum _by-products_ in addition to petroleum itself.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I'm trying to stay ontopic, but you're discussing it as a possible future for the US.
    A lot of people around the world seem to think this has already taken place.
    I'm pretty sure the US can sustain itsef when it comes to food production if necessary, but other countries may not be. Would they be justified in going to war if the need were there? Would we be justified in going to war for oil if, without it, our economy and even the entire country's infrastructure would collapse?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Tell me that China, if faced with starvation, wouldn't try to expand by attacking its neighbors if they were able to supply food, but withheld it.
    Just scenarios to think about.
    Closer to home, consider the ramifications of turning corn production towards fuel instead of food. What impact would that potentially have on US relations with Mexico?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What insulates the wiring in our homes? How many plastic parts are in the average Leaf? What process is used to create the batteries? One thing that is often overlooked in these sorts of discussions is our extreme dependence on petroleum _by-products_ in addition to petroleum itself.
    A parallel to the move toward bio-fuels is also the move toward plant-based plastic production.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Closer to home, consider the ramifications of turning corn production towards fuel instead of food. What impact would that potentially have on US relations with Mexico?
    Corn is only one source of bio-fuel and actually not the most efficient source. Corn is one of the sources that is most compatible for ethonal additives for gasoline based engines but it is NOT the most efficient bio-fuel source on an overall scale.
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Corn is only one source of bio-fuel and actually not the most efficient source. Corn is one of the sources that is most compatible for ethonal additives for gasoline based engines but it is NOT the most efficient bio-fuel source on an overall scale.
    Whether it is efficient or not is not the point. It is a resource that we have and others do not. What it al boils down to is what resources, if any, are woth, or even justifiable to, kill and possibly be killed over.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Whether it is efficient or not is not the point. It is a resource that we have and others do not. What it al boils down to is what resources, if any, are woth, or even justifiable to, kill and possibly be killed over.
    In this age, no resources are actually worth warring over for the US. Just because some people want things a little easier does not mean we should be killing people and razing other nations. We have all the resources we need and while using some of those resources maybe a little less convenient then others, our convenience does not justify killing.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What insulates the wiring in our homes? How many plastic parts are in the average Leaf? What process is used to create the batteries? One thing that is often overlooked in these sorts of discussions is our extreme dependence on petroleum _by-products_ in addition to petroleum itself.
    This point is almost always ignored. People view oil as a necessary evil to get us from one place to another, but don't look at, and probably don't even know about, the huge number of products used every day that require oil as an ingredient of their production. If we are able to use plant-based plastics and bio-fuel to supplant our need for oil, great. I don't think that's a realistic goal, or even a possible one.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    In this age, no resources are actually worth warring over for the US. Just because some people want things a little easier does not mean we should be killing people and razing other nations. We have all the resources we need and while using some of those resources maybe a little less convenient then others, our convenience does not justify killing.
    I don't think it's a matter of wanting things a little easier. If, in the future, the scarcity of oil causes prices to skyrocket so high that people are spending the majority of their incomes on transportation, the cost of goods becomes unsustainable due to incredible transportation costs, and our status as a world power is threatened, then what?
    And again, looking away from the needs of the US, what about the nation that faces a food crisis, and won't be able to sustain itself. Are they justified in going to war over food, or water, if they are unable to produce it themselves, and are either unable to afford the cost to import from another country, or are denied access to it?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  10. #30  
    Wouldn't it be cheaper - in the long run - to develop the alternative resources we need or otherwise plan for the future than to pay for more hideously expensive - in more than just money - wars?


    I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blonde. Dolly Parton
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daisys Mom View Post
    Wouldn't it be cheaper - in the long run - to develop the alternative resources we need or otherwise plan for the future than to pay for more hideously expensive - in more than just money - wars?
    That depends on whether or not it is possible to sustain our energy needs with alternative energies/fuels. But again, let's assume that it isn't. The question is...then what? Or if it's easier, take the food/argument as an alternative problem. What is your answer in that case?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    That depends on whether or not it is possible to sustain our energy needs with alternative energies/fuels. But again, let's assume that it isn't. The question is...then what? Or if it's easier, take the food/argument as an alternative problem. What is your answer in that case?
    I also said "plan for the future." That could take on a variety of meanings, including changing lifestyles and expectations for how we live. We're not stupid creatures. We can see the writing on the wall. Do we want to start making tough decisions now, or later say, "Oh, well, let's just go take it from them."

    Now, back to my question, wouldn't it be cheaper.... (since we're talking about the possible high prices of food, oil, etc.)


    I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blonde. Dolly Parton
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Would we be justified in going to war for oil if, without it, our economy and even the entire country's infrastructure would collapse?
    Well you've already gone to war for oil, only to make some guy's friends even richer, so why not do it again for the good of society.
  14. #34  
    actually many petroleum based products (e.g. plastics) can be made from various plants. It's just a matter of manufacturing efficiency, as well as real demand to replace petroleum based products.
    I see pandas.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daisys Mom View Post
    I also said "plan for the future." That could take on a variety of meanings, including changing lifestyles and expectations for how we live. We're not stupid creatures. We can see the writing on the wall. Do we want to start making tough decisions now, or later say, "Oh, well, let's just go take it from them."

    Now, back to my question, wouldn't it be cheaper.... (since we're talking about the possible high prices of food, oil, etc.)
    I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are saying no to the question of war over oil. If so, then how would we plan for the future? What changes need to be made so that we would be able to sustain our current economy and way of life? Or are you saying that we need to come to terms with the fact that we are going to need to make sacrifices and do away with certain luxuries in our day to day lives? If so, which ones? Also, how do we compete on a global scale? How do we remain a world power? How do we fuel our military (yes, even if we're not going to war, it is a necessity)?
    Given that you believe we can be independent when it comes to energy, then you refuse to accept the premise of my argument, or rather, the starting point. So let me offer another hypothetical: Right now, Country A is experiencing a severe and most likely permanent food/water shortage. Country B has reserves of food/water, but is unwilling to share it with Country A, except at a price that would soon bankrupt it. Is Country A justified in going to war with Country B over the food/water, and would you support that war?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Well you've already gone to war for oil, only to make some guy's friends even richer, so why not do it again for the good of society.
    I would really rather not get into current politics. I can clearly see your stance, and you're assuming to know mine by the question I asked, so let's leave it there, eh? Take the last part of your above statement. Would you support such a war if it were for the good of our society? Would you support it if it was the only recourse to keep our society from collapsing. Remember, these are only hypotheticals, although I think they may be closer than people think. And if you refuse to answer this question, then go with the food/water example above. Or don't.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceAlbert View Post
    actually many petroleum based products (e.g. plastics) can be made from various plants. It's just a matter of manufacturing efficiency, as well as real demand to replace petroleum based products.
    Has nothing to do with my question. If, at a certain point in the future, our (or another unspecific country's) lack of oil was inevitably going to cause the downfall of the economy, infrastructure, and our way of life, would you support a war for such resources.
    If you do, you are saying that you are either willing to die yourself, or send others who may die, in order to secure resources from another country, and are willing to kill them for it. You are willing to take their oil and cause their economy, and their country, to decay. Or with food, you are willing to have them starve so you can eat. Or with water, you are willing to have them die from dehydration in order for you to live.
    If you don't, you are willing to let our country decay and our economy to collapse. Or with food, you are willing to let yourself and/or your countrymen starve. Or with water, you are willing to let yourself and/or your countrymen to die from dehydration.
    This is all assuming that any and all alternatives have been exhausted. do you see any other outcomes?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Has nothing to do with my question. If, at a certain point in the future, our (or another unspecific country's) lack of oil was inevitably going to cause the downfall of the economy, infrastructure, and our way of life, would you support a war for such resources.
    If you do, you are saying that you are either willing to die yourself, or send others who may die, in order to secure resources from another country, and are willing to kill them for it. You are willing to take their oil and cause their economy, and their country, to decay. Or with food, you are willing to have them starve so you can eat. Or with water, you are willing to have them die from dehydration in order for you to live.
    If you don't, you are willing to let our country decay and our economy to collapse. Or with food, you are willing to let yourself and/or your countrymen starve. Or with water, you are willing to let yourself and/or your countrymen to die from dehydration.
    This is all assuming that any and all alternatives have been exhausted. do you see any other outcomes?
    OK. Would I support such a war? No. Especially if we are too lazy or too stupid to figure out how to avoid such choices in the future. As I said, we're not stupid creatures. This is a planet of mostly finite resources. We need to use our brains and figure it out.

    And that's all I have to say on the subject. Interesting discussion.


    I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blonde. Dolly Parton
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daisys Mom View Post
    OK. Would I support such a war? No. Especially if we are too lazy or too stupid to figure out how to avoid such choices in the future. As I said, we're not stupid creatures. This is a planet of mostly finite resources. We need to use our brains and figure it out.

    And that's all I have to say on the subject. Interesting discussion.
    Like I said, just hypothetical (but possible) situations. Trying to see what others think on the subject and their reasoning.
    When it comes to the food/water argument, I don't think it has anything to do with laziness or stupidity. A country is limited by the resources it has access to and the ones it can import. If food/water become scarce, due to over-population/drought/disease, are you saying that they should starve if they cannot afford to import any food/water? Or if no one is willing/able to share it with them?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    A parallel to the move toward bio-fuels is also the move toward plant-based plastic production.
    Meaning it's not necessarily as green as proponents might like to think as well?
    Plant-based plastics not necessarily greener than oil-based relatives, researchers find
    Corn is only one source of bio-fuel and actually not the most efficient source. Corn is one of the sources that is most compatible for ethonal additives for gasoline based engines but it is NOT the most efficient bio-fuel source on an overall scale.
    I don't think I said nor implied it was. That bears no relation to the subject I brought up.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Like I said, just hypothetical (but possible) situations. Trying to see what others think on the subject and their reasoning.
    When it comes to the food/water argument, I don't think it has anything to do with laziness or stupidity. A country is limited by the resources it has access to and the ones it can import. If food/water become scarce, due to over-population/drought/disease, are you saying that they should starve if they cannot afford to import any food/water? Or if no one is willing/able to share it with them?
    I think your hypothetical is going a bit off the rails. If your example country is in such dire straights, then how are they going to even make war to take other's resources?
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