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  1. #21  
    Remember that guy you went to school with, the one who was a complete screw up.

    As someone serving in the military, I don't want that guy standing behind me, whether it be with a gun or a piece of machinery.
  2. irateb's Avatar
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    #22  
    Yeah, like several people have stated, I think the military today has a lot of people who didn't join because they actually believe in defending this country, but because they had nothing better to do (or no other options). I'm not sure which is better, a smaller military with more dedicated individuals, or a larger military so that people are thrown at issues rather than thinking about it. I do like the discipline/physical fitness/self-esteem portion of the argument, but I think that could be accomplished with a vast overhaul of the education system. Unfortunately, it appears to me that wars, the financial system and healthcare take precedence, which is a shame.
    Last edited by irateb; 10/04/2010 at 10:54 AM. Reason: grammar
  3. #23  
    Switched -

    At one point in my life I would have totally agreed with you. Many of your points are exactly what I believe would help this country and young people.

    However, like others have said, forcing people to do ANYthing, especially military service, would actually lead to a weaker military, not a stronger one. So I see their point as well.

    I think instead of forcing young people to join, maybe we could get juniors and seniors in high school to listen to a military recruiter during an assembly, or something like that. I always "knew" about joining the military, but I never sought it out, or went to a recruting location to hear what they had to say. It was drilled into me that "I had to go to college," so that's what I did.

    The emphasis is always on "go to college" in high school. Maybe having a "Join the Military" week, where each day a different branch is on campus talking about what they offer, could be an idea worth pursuing. Make it abundantly easy to get information and talk about what the military offers. Plus, if you get one person to join, perhaps peer pressure or other forces would get others to join along with them.

    This is a great topic to debate the merits of joining the military. I think most people who experienced it would encourage people to, at the very least, consider it, if not whole-heartedly push someone to make that choice. But it still has to remain a choice.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by irateb View Post
    I do like the discipline/physical fitness/self-esteem portion of the argument, but I think that could be accomplished with a vast overhaul of the education system. Unfortunately, it appears to me that wars, the financial system and healthcare take precedence, which is a shame.

    Yeah, that evil health care interfering with your self-esteem. That really sucks, doesn't it? It's much better to have kids that have lots of self esteem and can't get their asthma treated. And it has so much in common with wars and Wall Street, too, doesn't it? GMAFB
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    arrrrggghhh just went to edit a long post and hit delete! Crap! Anyhow the gist was to say thankyou to those who have served and say that imo both volunteer and mandatory have good and bad points to them.
    Its hard for me to speak because I have never served but I do see big big issues with our society today and wonder if doing something like this for a generation might help fix some of it.
    Post undeleted.
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  6. angiest's Avatar
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    #26  
    Question, where does the US Constitution allow for a draft, or mandatory public service of any kind?

    I think someone made a reference to Starship Troopers in here. The movie and the book have nothing really in common. Public service (generally through the Federation military) was not a requirement unless one wanted to vote. IIRC, all humans living on Earth had full civil liberties, but did not enjoy full citizenship, that is, the franchise, unless they chose to serve the Federation.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
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    Thanks pogey!
  8. irateb's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yeah, that evil health care interfering with your self-esteem. That really sucks, doesn't it? It's much better to have kids that have lots of self esteem and can't get their asthma treated. And it has so much in common with wars and Wall Street, too, doesn't it? GMAFB
    So education is not a priority to you, fine. With one kid here and one on the way, it is to me. If you are educated, your self-esteem is likely to be greater than someone who is less educated. If funding isn't taken away from physical fitness programs in school, a lot of people who wouldn't be asthmatic with some exercise and better eating habits wouldn't need the asthma treatment. If you are educated, a lot of the issues switchedgear talked about would be greatly lessened. I could go on and on with the things education could help with, but obviously you'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Thanks for the insightful post.
  9. #29  
    Not being American, and not having a whole lot of education on the Vietnam war, there may be some things I'm missing, so feel free to correct me. IMO, there was a war that forced conscription to battle the evil communists half a world away. Not sure what the total death count was, but I know it was a lot. Pretty sure that nothing was gained on that front either. So by forcing however many young men and women to be sent to the meat grinder, how did that benefit your country? (or Vietnam's?) It just seems like a senseless thing to me, having a draft, so that whenever those in power decide they need to flex their muscles, they can send countless bodies against their will,for "the greater good". I realize warfare is totally different now from then, we're not seeing death counts in the tens of thousands, or millions like in the first two world wars, but sending people to die for their countries beliefs against their will is wrong.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yeah, that evil health care interfering with your self-esteem. That really sucks, doesn't it? It's much better to have kids that have lots of self esteem and can't get their asthma treated. And it has so much in common with wars and Wall Street, too, doesn't it? GMAFB
    Quote Originally Posted by irateb View Post
    So education is not a priority to you, fine. With one kid here and one on the way, it is to me. If you are educated, your self-esteem is likely to be greater than someone who is less educated. If funding isn't taken away from physical fitness programs in school, a lot of people who wouldn't be asthmatic with some exercise and better eating habits wouldn't need the asthma treatment. If you are educated, a lot of the issues switchedgear talked about would be greatly lessened. I could go on and on with the things education could help with, but obviously you'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Thanks for the insightful post.
    Everyone has their concerns with this country. Davidra is entitled to feel that our ills will be remedied by having universal healthcare, just as irateb is entitled to believe that education is where we should focus.

    It doesn't make either one of you wrong, but it does make you off topic.
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  11. irateb's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Everyone has their concerns with this country. Davidra is entitled to feel that our ills will be remedied by having universal healthcare, just as irateb is entitled to believe that education is where we should focus.

    It doesn't make either one of you wrong, but it does make you off topic.
    Well to put me back on topic then, I don't believe mandatory military service is the way to go, because of the reason in my off topic post.
  12. #32  
    I agree that making service mandatory is not the right way to go as well. Though if we had a WWII type calamity, I would be willing to reconsider my stand.
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  13. #33  
    i like the idea.
  14. #34  
    I would tend to agree with sledge007 on a lot of this. There is a grand difference between an army that is compelled to war, and an army of professionals. When I went into the service... it was by choice. When we saw combat, it was my choice... the people who didn't want to be there in the first place usually ended up leaving the party early, if you understand my meaning.

    There are other benefits to professionalism... people who dontt want to be near combat or combat training have more stress and associated problems, war crimes would be reduced because professionals need to blow off steam less frequently. Casualties are lower among professionals, and objectives are, as a general rule, completed more frequently... professional fighters are typically both more fierce, and more level headed/less emotional. A lot of this is why the Spartans were so feared...

    The other benefits you mention are a bit of a mixed bag. I do believe it would raise patriotism, but I doubt it would increase school funding and the like. If anything, you might see a general apathy in test scores and the like, due to the 2 year gap in education. In a conscription army, you wouldn't "get to pick" your MOS the way it is now. Otherwise, everyone would choose to be in the supply lines and there would be no grunts. Only exceptional students would go where there were holes in need.

    I agree about the health benefits... theres really not much to say beyond that...

    The powerful, the rich and famous... their children would certainly not serve with yours. I'm sure special "corps" would be created... and those that had the resources to get their children into them would do so, touting all kinds of reasons why they would need to be segregated, such as being target by people wanting to kidnap them etc.

    There is also one more thing to consider... the American military machine is scaled back... I doubt they would have the resources to take on such a huge influx of young people. And for two years... taxes would pay them, clothe them, feed them, give them medical care, house them, train them, transport them... etc and so on. The front end costs alone of expanding military bases and building more would be prohibitive at least.

    I had more to say... but Ive lost my train of thought.
  15. #35  
    I think WWII and Vietnam are both examples of the draft working and not working. Could it be that faced the the "correct" enemy, even draftees buy into service. But faced with the "wrong" enemy, guys run for the hills, or Canada, whichever is closer.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlangley21 View Post
    Switched -

    At one point in my life I would have totally agreed with you. Many of your points are exactly what I believe would help this country and young people.

    However, like others have said, forcing people to do ANYthing, especially military service, would actually lead to a weaker military, not a stronger one. So I see their point as well.

    I think instead of forcing young people to join, maybe we could get juniors and seniors in high school to listen to a military recruiter during an assembly, or something like that. I always "knew" about joining the military, but I never sought it out, or went to a recruting location to hear what they had to say. It was drilled into me that "I had to go to college," so that's what I did.

    The emphasis is always on "go to college" in high school. Maybe having a "Join the Military" week, where each day a different branch is on campus talking about what they offer, could be an idea worth pursuing. Make it abundantly easy to get information and talk about what the military offers. Plus, if you get one person to join, perhaps peer pressure or other forces would get others to join along with them.

    This is a great topic to debate the merits of joining the military. I think most people who experienced it would encourage people to, at the very least, consider it, if not whole-heartedly push someone to make that choice. But it still has to remain a choice.

    dont they do this already? they went to my school but failed miserably well with me anyways. to me the recruiters sound like sales men they promise and offer alot of things that fall short.... (reason i say this is because i had a GF that was in the NAVY and she explained a lot of **** to me that i was jaw dropped, needless to say it was ****ed up) they also went into best buy (when i was working there) and tried to recruit me again and several other people. me personally just cant follow others blindly i need to see both sides of the argument b4 i act which is also the problem i have with my dad when we go to church n i tell him i dont believe everything they say 100% not that i dont believe i just find somethings ehh a lil hard to believe. idk just my 2cents good read tho

    @OP i see the good and the bad in what u said but also in what a lot of people said...

    at the end i think choice is best, because i know when im forced to do something its not the same as when i WANT to do something
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by irateb View Post
    So education is not a priority to you, fine. With one kid here and one on the way, it is to me. If you are educated, your self-esteem is likely to be greater than someone who is less educated. If funding isn't taken away from physical fitness programs in school, a lot of people who wouldn't be asthmatic with some exercise and better eating habits wouldn't need the asthma treatment. If you are educated, a lot of the issues switchedgear talked about would be greatly lessened. I could go on and on with the things education could help with, but obviously you'd rather spend the money elsewhere. Thanks for the insightful post.
    not to sound like im against education or w/e maybe i read your post wrong BUT! usually the dumb ones are the bullies that lower the EDUCATED kids in school's self esteem. also i have asthma and it isnt because im not fit or didnt exercise i was born with asthma and through out the years has gotten better but always creep up at least once a year. IF i read your post correctly i do agree that we need better exercise programs in school and better/healthier lunches because when i was in school our lunches were horrible! anyways again just my 2 censt
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #38  
    We're talking apples and oranges here. The OT was focused on raising "patriotism and educational standards" by requiring a draft for the military - I believe that was the context.

    If we end up in a war that will require more manpower than our current military can support, then that's a totally different reason for the draft.

    Don't confuse the two.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. irateb's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by VenpaCasa View Post
    not to sound like im against education or w/e maybe i read your post wrong BUT! usually the dumb ones are the bullies that lower the EDUCATED kids in school's self esteem. also i have asthma and it isnt because im not fit or didnt exercise i was born with asthma and through out the years has gotten better but always creep up at least once a year. IF i read your post correctly i do agree that we need better exercise programs in school and better/healthier lunches because when i was in school our lunches were horrible! anyways again just my 2 censt
    No you read it right. I agree with you. I do think some of the dumb ones stay dumb because our system is failing. I know that some people are asthmatic and can't do anything about it, but there are some whose poor habits cause asthma.

    Sorry Pogey, please don't beat me...
  20. #40  
    irateb is well aware that some of us have health problems purely through heredity and nothing we could have done or anything we learned would've prevented them.

    However, there is also a huge percentage of people who could prevent theirs if they were properly educated or bothered to learn. Every time I got to my appt at the cardiac center, there is at least one other person there who is suffering, because they will not bother to learn proper diet and nutritionn.

    Military service doesn't teach this stuff, either!
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