Page 9 of 37 FirstFirst ... 456789101112131419 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 726
  1. #161  
    Looking at the supplied link, over 85% of developed countries in the Americas and Europe have both universal health care and unemployment rates below that of the US. So I can see why there is a lot of skepticism with the argument that high unemployment necessarily follows from implementation of universal health care, in the case of Spain or other developed countries. In fact, the overall trend suggests the opposite conclusion.
    Unemployment Rates Around The World |

    However, a far safer bet is that Spain's universal health care system is directly related to their life expectancy and infant mortality rates, which are far superior to the United States.

    List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  2. #162  
    you can't compare their healtjcare costs unless you compare their healthcare.

    are you saying it's just as good?
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    you can't compare their healtjcare costs unless you compare their healthcare.

    are you saying it's just as good?
    See...

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    However, a far safer bet is that Spain's universal health care system is directly related to their life expectancy and infant mortality rates, which are far superior to the United States.

    List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    you can't compare their healtjcare costs unless you compare their healthcare.

    are you saying it's just as good?
    I wasn't talking about costs....... but now that you bring it up, it sure seems to me that countries with universal health care can deliver better care at a lower cost relative to the US.

    Healthcare Costs Around the World |
  5. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #165  
    I wish we wouldn't use the infant mortality statistic without explanations. It's so easy to paint US health care as substandard by pointing to IMR but the numbers are so much more complex. Reporting guidelines, for example, aren't standard among all countries. Cuba, for example, is unlikely to have very accurate reporting guidelines as compared to the US or the EU yet they are widely quoted as having better health care partly due to their stated IMR. Additionally, France, the Netherlands, and Poland require reporting only for births at over 500 grams or 22 weeks of gestation. Also worth noting, the US IMR is lower than most EU countries for preterm infants but higher for infants born at 37 weeks or more. This points to some very specific problems but may not be indicative of a systemic problem in health care delivery.

    Again I quote, there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics!"
    Last edited by groovy; 09/28/2010 at 11:18 PM.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I wish we wouldn't use the infant mortality statistic without explanations. It's so easy to paint US health care as substandard by pointing to IMR but the numbers are so much more complex. Reporting guidelines, for example, aren't standard among all countries. Cuba, for example, is unlikely to have very accurate reporting guidelines as compared to the US or the EU yet they are widely quoted as having better health care partly due to their stated IMR. Additionally, France, the Netherlands, and Poland require reporting only for births at over 500 grams or 22 weeks of gestation. Also worth noting, the US IMR is lower than most EU countries for preterm infants but higher for infants born at 37 weeks or more. This points to some very specific problems but may not be indicative of a systemic problem in health care delivery.

    Again I quote, there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics!"
    Do you have any proof that other countries are "cooking" the stats or are you just trying to discredit stats that do not coincide with your own agenda?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  7. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Do you have any proof that other countries are "cooking" the stats or are you just trying to discredit stats that do not coincide with your own agenda?
    Using different criteria for measurement does not necessarily equate to "cooking" the stats so I don't believe my comment should have been taken as derogatory, for the most part. With regard Cuba, common sense dictates that states in the bottom half of the democracy index don't have the best reputation for open self-assessment. Yes, to be clear, I feel comfortable discrediting the Cuban government.
    Last edited by groovy; 09/29/2010 at 12:39 AM.
  8.    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm certainly no expert. I've been told though that it's driven physician liability insurance through the roof. Is this not the case?
    Not sure how many times I've made this point: tort reform as a measure of cost control in health care DOES NOT WORK. It has been shown not to work in Texas and Colorado. It is NOTHING but a republican talking point. As I have said many times, I really have no problem with reasonable tort reform but it will NOT lower malpractice insurance costs and it doesn't result in changing practice patterns that also would decrease costs. This is a known fact. There is no reason whatsoever to think that national tort reform will affect health care costs.


    Liability Limits Provides None of the Advertised Benefits, Particularly Not Cost Savings
    Nationwide, medical malpractice litigation is at the lowest level on record and has been falling
    steadily for years. But health care costs have continued rising.
    Evidence from Texas.
    We examined Texas’ experience with strict liability limits, enacted in
    2003. Since Texas passed those laws, medical malpractice payments to injured patients has
    dropped by 67 percent. But none of this has translated into benefits for Texas patients or
    taxpayers. Since 2003:
    • the cost of diagnostic testing in Texas (measured by per patient Medicare
    reimbursements) has grown 50 percent faster than the national average;
    • spending increases for diagnostic testing (measured by per patient Medicare
    reimbursements) have far exceeded the national average;
    • the state’s uninsured rate has increased, remaining the highest in the country;
    • the cost of health insurance in the state has more than doubled;
    • growth in the number of doctors per capita has slowed; and
    • the number of doctors per capita in underserved rural areas has declined
    .

    1
    In response to this analysis, the president of the Texas Medical Association, William Fleming,
    MD, stated: “
    The goal of tort reform was never cost containment.”2

    CBO’s erroneous 2009 report.
    In October 2009, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) stated
    that a package of medical liability limits would reduce federal budget deficits by roughly $5.4
    billion a year. But the CBO’s report lacks evidentiary support. First, CBO fails to explain how
    each tort reform proposal will reduce costs. In fact, the agency admits that the “estimated effect
    of any specific legislative proposal would depend on the details of that proposal.”
    3 The CBO also
    fails to discuss the impact of shifting the costs of preventable medical errors from those
    responsible, negligent medical providers to federal government programs such as Social Security
    and Supplemental Security Income disability programs, Medicaid, and Medicare.
    Finally, even
    if the CBO estimate is correct, it amounts to less than one-fourth of one-percent of U.S.
    health care spending
    .
    “We did tort reform in 1988 before it was cool,” Colorado Gov. Bill Ritter Jr. recently explained
    at the National Governors Association convention. But despite the legal change, the state has

    some of the country’s highest health-care costs.
    4
    http://www.citizen.org/documents/Med...Fact_Sheet.pdf
  9.    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    And so the shake up begins.....


    Harvard Pilgrim cancels Medicare Advantage plan
    By Robert Weisman, Globe Staff | September 28, 2010

    Harvard Pilgrim Health Care has notified customers that it will drop its Medicare Advantage health insurance program at the end of the year, forcing 22,000 senior citizens in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine to seek alternative supplemental coverage.

    The decision by Wellesley-based Harvard Pilgrim, the state’s second-largest health insurer, was prompted by a freeze in federal reimbursements and a new requirement that insurers offering the kind of product sold by Harvard Pilgrim — a Medicare Advantage private fee for service plan — form a contracted network of doctors who agree to participate for a negotiated amount of money. Under current rules, patients can seek care from any doctor.

    “We became concerned by the long-term viability of Medicare Advantage programs in general,’’ said Lynn Bowman, vice president of customer service at Harvard Pilgrim’s office in Quincy. “We know that cuts in Medicare are being used to fund national health care reform. And we also had concerns about our ability to build a network of health care providers that would meet the needs of our seniors.’’
    Sorry, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Medicare Advantage costs up to 20% more than Medicare, and the quality of care is no better in most cases, and clearly worse in some. It has turned out to be a great handout to private healthcare and many feel the taxpayers are not getting their moneys worth out of the program. While it's unlikely that Pilgrim will have major quality issues, the plan to tie Advantage reimbursement to the demonstrated quality of care provided, which sure seems to make sense, has private insurers concerned. They shouldn't be; they should embracing the idea of monitoring and improving the quality of care they provide.

    Medicare Advantage Quality Study: Seniors Not Signing Up For The Best Plans
    Last edited by davidra; 09/29/2010 at 05:08 AM.
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I wish we wouldn't use the infant mortality statistic without explanations. It's so easy to paint US health care as substandard by pointing to IMR but the numbers are so much more complex. Reporting guidelines, for example, aren't standard among all countries. Cuba, for example, is unlikely to have very accurate reporting guidelines as compared to the US or the EU yet they are widely quoted as having better health care partly due to their stated IMR. Additionally, France, the Netherlands, and Poland require reporting only for births at over 500 grams or 22 weeks of gestation. Also worth noting, the US IMR is lower than most EU countries for preterm infants but higher for infants born at 37 weeks or more. This points to some very specific problems but may not be indicative of a systemic problem in health care delivery.

    Again I quote, there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics!"

    Actually, the US Government's National Center for Health Statistics published a study addressing the differences in infant mortality between the US and europe.

    Behind International Rankings of Infant Mortality: How the United States Compares with Europe. NCHS Data Brief, November 2009

    The report looked at the western european countries (including Austria, Denmark, England and Wales, Finland, Germany, Italy, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Scotland, Spain, Sweden) which report all lives births like the US does. From this analysis, the United States clearly has a higher mortality rate than any of the other western european countries. In fact the US infant mortality rate is closer to that of many former soviet bloc eastern european countries than it is with the western european countries.

    These studies suggest that the reason that the US lags behind western europe in infant mortality is not due to reporting differences, as you have suggested. Instead the report shows that these differences more likely result from the fact that the US has a many more preterm births than the rest of western europe. The report concludes that "Because preterm births are at greater risk of death or disability than term births, countries with a higher percentage of preterm births tend to have higher infant mortality rates".

    Its clear that poor prenatal care leads to increased premature births and infant mortality, and the and the March of Dimes (one of the leading authorities on birth defects) gives the United States near failing grades in this area. Finally I'll just point out that the New England Journal of Medicine correlates a lack of health insurance with lack of prenatal care and increased infant mortality.

    No, the problem in infant mortality here in the US is not related to statistical errors, but instead related to poor prenatal care, and I would suggest any system of health care delivery that can improve this situation would be a step in the right direction.
  11. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not sure how many times I've made this point: tort reform as a measure of cost control in health care DOES NOT WORK. It has been shown not to work in Texas and Colorado. It is NOTHING but a republican talking point.
    So, the physicians that I've heard discuss how outrageously high liability insurance is, and lamenting the fact that they have to pass that expense on to treatment costs.... that's just a republican talking point? Those guys can't read their own P&L's?

    Give me a break....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I wasn't talking about costs....... but now that you bring it up, it sure seems to me that countries with universal health care can deliver better care at a lower cost relative to the US.

    Healthcare Costs Around the World |
    better care? really? I hadn't heard that other countries offer better care. where should I fly to when I have a serious illness?
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, the physicians that I've heard discuss how outrageously high liability insurance is, and lamenting the fact that they have to pass that expense on to treatment costs.... that's just a republican talking point? Those guys can't read their own P&L's?

    Give me a break....
    No, he's not saying that its the talking point. He's saying the talking point is the idea that there is any reasonable amount of tort reform that can be done on a national level that will effect those high liability insurance costs outside eliminating tort altogether.
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    better care? really? I hadn't heard that other countries offer better care. where should I fly to when I have a serious illness?
    For a standard treatment or an experimental treatment covered by grant funds?
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    For a standard treatment or an experimental treatment covered by grant funds?
    whatever will best heal me, or anyone with universal health care.
  16.    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, the physicians that I've heard discuss how outrageously high liability insurance is, and lamenting the fact that they have to pass that expense on to treatment costs.... that's just a republican talking point? Those guys can't read their own P&L's?

    Give me a break....
    You give me a break. They are right; the problem isn't them, it's the fact that even with plummeting malpractice cases and settlements, the insurance companies have refused to lower their premiums. The reason tort reform is supposed to work is that insurance premiums are supposed to decrease, and that diagnostic test ordering is supposed to decrease because doctors will have less need for practicing defensive medicine. Neither has happened. Who's at fault? Insurance companies for not appropriately lowering their premiums as they should, and doctors for not altering their test ordering behaviors. Plenty of blame to go around, but the point is that it DOESN'T WORK.
  17.    #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    whatever will best heal me, or anyone with universal health care.
    What would you like? Joint replacement surgery? Would you rather have it in a small community hospital that does a few procedures a year, an urban community hospital in an underserved area, or at a state-of-the-art hospital in New Zealand that does it for half price and has doctors trained at Harvard? Where do you think the outcomes are better?

    Hip & Knee Replacement Surgery, Health Tourism | My Orthopedic Options

    If you really think that just because someone gets care here in the US it's high quality care and better than people get elsewhere, I can say without question you are wrong. It depends on where you get it, who is providing it, what their experience is, and what systems they have in place to ensure you get high quality care. You may not like what the international statistics show about the quality of care in the US, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. We provide excellent care in this country....but it could be much much better. We have up to 200,000 people die each year in this country from preventable medical errors, more than the number that die in auto accidents and this would rank fourth on the list of causes of death. Sound acceptable to you?
  18. #178  
    that's part of the answer, and I appreciate that. Could you also provide a list of the top ailments and the best country for treatment of each?

    i want to plan ahead. thanks.
  19.    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    that's part of the answer, and I appreciate that. Could you also provide a list of the top ailments and the best country for treatment of each?

    i want to plan ahead. thanks.
    Don't you think it's more reasonable to make sure you can receive high quality care here? Unless you just like to travel, or unless you don't have insurance, in which case you can save a buttload by traveling and get comparable quality care. Wouldn't you like to know the post-surgical mortality rate for all the hospitals in your area? Think that might make a difference in who you picked? After all, you do favor the free market, right? Don't you think we should be able to compete with overseas health care? Don't you think we should be able to have information about the quality of care you get in your own little section of the world? Or does that sound un-American?

    Tell me, did you spend as much time determining which doctor or hospital to go to as you did what phone to buy?
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Wouldn't you like to know the post-surgical mortality rate for all the hospitals in your area? Think that might make a difference in who you picked? After all, you do favor the free market, right? Don't you think we should be able to compete with overseas health care? Don't you think we should be able to have information about the quality of care you get in your own little section of the world? Or does that sound un-American?

    Tell me, did you spend as much time determining which doctor or hospital to go to as you did what phone to buy?
    Yes
    Yes
    Yes
    Yes
    No
    No (insurance company tells me where)

    not sure how obama-care will make all that info available, but I'm all for it...
Page 9 of 37 FirstFirst ... 456789101112131419 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions