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  1. #121  
    I feel like things went better without obama spending all this money, Im not saying Bush was a great president but he didnt run us into an even bigger hole of debt
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Does universal health care lead to Hayek's economic 'road to serfdom'? I think not.

    Canada, Switzerland, Ireland, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia have both universal health care AND the highest levels of economic freedom and opportunity in the world (more than the United States).
    That appears to be measuring how much the government is meddling with businesses & investors as well as government spending. From the overviews it appears that they are considering the health reform legislation as a negative and sane regulation as a positive.

    US
    The U.S. government’s interventionist responses to the financial and economic crisis that began in 2008 have significantly undermined economic freedom and long-term prospects for economic growth. Economic freedom has declined in seven of the 10 categories measured in the Index.

    Uncertainties caused by ongoing regulatory changes and politically influenced stimulus spending have discouraged entrepreneurship and job creation, slowing recovery. Leadership in free trade has been undercut by “Buy American” provisions in stimulus legislation and failure to pursue previously agreed free trade agreements with Panama, Colombia, and South Korea. Tax rates are increasingly uncompetitive, and massive stimulus spending is creating unprecedented deficits. Bailouts of financial and automotive firms have generated concerns about property rights.

    BACKGROUND
    The U.S. economy is the world’s largest. Services account for more than 70 percent of economic activity, but the U.S. is also the world’s largest producer of manufactured goods and fourth-largest producer of agricultural products. A federal form of government that reserves significant powers to states and localities has encouraged diverse economic policies and strategies. The national government’s role in the economy, already expanding under President George W. Bush, has grown sharply under the Administration of President Barack Obama, who took office in January 2009. Economic growth, which collapsed in 2008, had resumed by the second half of 2009, but legislative proposals for large and expensive new government programs on health care and energy use (climate change) have increased prospects for significant economic disruptions and raised concerns about the long-term health of the economy.
    Canada
    Scoring high in many of the 10 economic freedoms, Canada performs particularly well in business freedom, financial freedom, property rights, and freedom from corruption. Straightforward regulations facilitate entrepreneurial activity. Overall, regulation is thorough but essentially transparent. A strong rule of law ensures property rights and equitable application of the commercial code. A high level of economic freedom, coupled with a sound and prudent banking sector, has enabled Canada to emerge from the global downturn relatively unscathed.

    Canada’s economic freedom trails the world average only in government spending. Elaborate social and welfare state programs swell overall government expenditures. Government spending has also increased slightly due to implementation of a significant stimulus package. However, good fiscal management and federal budget surpluses have enabled the economy to undertake stimulus measures without undermining fiscal soundness and long-term economic competitiveness.

    BACKGROUND
    Canada has a strong and stable democratic political system that has proven itself capable of handling occasional ethnic tensions. It is also one of the world’s leading free-market economies and a major exporter of oil, minerals, automobiles, manufactured goods, and forest products. Over 75 percent of its exports are to the United States. Despite one of the most restrictive foreign ownership policies in telecommunications, publishing, broadcasting, aviation, mining, and fishing among all Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries, macroeconomic fundamentals remain strong. In May and June 2008, Canada strengthened its commitment to become a more active economic partner in the Americas by concluding free trade negotiations with Colombia and signing a similar agreement with Peru.
    Australia
    Sound macroeconomic policies and well-implemented structural reforms have allowed the Australian economy to weather the recent global financial and economic crisis better than many other advanced economies. Facilitated by robust supervision and sound regulation, Australia’s banks have coped well with the financial turmoil. Unemployment has been rising since the start of 2009 but remains well below the OECD average. With growth recovering, the government’s temporary stimulus measures are scheduled to phase out in 2010.

    Overall, the Australian economy is well equipped in terms of its structural strength. Monetary stability and openness to global commerce continue to facilitate a competitive financial and investment environment based on market principles. A strong rule of law protects property rights, and corruption is perceived as minimal. Both foreign and domestically owned businesses enjoy considerable flexibility under licensing and regulatory schemes and in their employment practices. Measures to enhance public finance and maintain long-term fiscal sustainability are focused on achieving better efficiency and effectiveness.

    BACKGROUND
    Australia is one of the Asia–Pacific’s richest countries. Over a period of more than three decades, successive Labor and Liberal governments have deregulated financial and labor markets and reduced trade barriers. Now in its 18th year of uninterrupted economic expansion, Australia is an internationally competitive producer of services, technologies, and high-value-added manufactured goods. Its export sector remains heavily focused on mining and agriculture.


    FWIW, I communicate with a few Aussies every week and for the most part, they opt for private health insurance over the public option because of the speed & quality of the care(like Canada, it isn't run on the national level, but by the states/provinces ... dental care is worse). It also seems that they pay a lot more for housing, fuel, vehicles, etc. than what we do in the US. Recently, many have been quite happy about the rise of the AU$ compared to the US$ since it will allow them to import stuff from US retailers even cheaper than they do now.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    No problem. Let's start with quality:



    Feel free to try this link as well:

    How Veterans' Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care - TIME

    There are not many comparisons of costs, because of the VA population that uses VA as well as non-VA services. However, what has been studied suggests VA costs are lower than Medicare and lower than private care.

    I work as an attending physician both at the VA Med center and a top ten ranked major University Med center, and (IMO) the Vets get just as good, if not better, health care compared to our University patients.

    Its not just my opinion, we are in fact, getting a large influx of Vets who are dropping their private insurance and transferring their care to the VA. After making the switch, so many of them they tell me the care we provide in the VA is far superior to any they received in the private sector.

    So anyone who wants to spout off that government sponsored health care does not work - you should come visit me at my VA hospital and see for yourself what kind of care we provide.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/27/2010 at 08:27 PM.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Internal economy yes. But the wars are what put us into such horrible debt making it harder for us in the long run. Even despite failings of the government to deal with the warning signs of those sectors' impending collapse we'd still have been better off managing them if we hadn't piled on debt from two different, concurrent wars, only one of which actually had real justification.
    Just the 2009 stimulus & associated domestic spending increases was about the same as the total amount spent on the wars. Compare the yearly expenditures of the wars on the link below to several of the 'mandated' spending categories and they're cheap. Wars eventually end, but government entitlements (corporate & individual) just keep on growing.

    http://www.nationalpriorities.org/si..._aug4_2010.png
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    That appears to be measuring how much the government is meddling with businesses & investors as well as government spending. From the overviews it appears that they are considering the health reform legislation as a negative
    Its coming from the Heritage Foundation, what would you expect. The point is, despite their inherent bias, they still find the state of economic freedom and opportunity in these countries with universal health care is just as healthy, if not more so, than that of the US.

    This shows that universal health care is not tied to Hayeks theory of an economic road to serfdom, as incorrectly suggested by a previous poster.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Its coming from the Heritage Foundation, what would you expect. The point is, despite their inherent bias, they still find the state of economic freedom and opportunity in countries with universal health care is just as, if not more healthy than that of the US.
    But they weren't ranking them higher because of it unless one credits the 2.7 point drop by the US that put it below Canada due to the health care legislation.


    The VA must have improved greatly in comparison to private hospitals. My grandfather used to say "people go to the VA because it's free, not because it is any good".
  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Nope, just saying that a prominent GOP member with a lot of conservative credentials on both the social and economic fronts saw the wisdom of a government/private-sector partnership in dealing with the healthcare problem and made it happen. But when a virtually identical plan passes Congress after a year of deliberations and compromises people talk like Vladimir Lenin is running the U.S. Pretty ridiculous, don't you think?
    Nope. Pretty scary actually. But this is an old old rehash. You guys won the battle. Remember?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    The VA must have improved greatly in comparison to private hospitals.
    I can only speak from my own experience over the past 15 years and that of the patients I've encountered over that time. But if you want more info and you are a veteran, try going to the VA some time as a patient.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    Just the 2009 stimulus & associated domestic spending increases was about the same as the total amount spent on the wars. Compare the yearly expenditures of the wars on the link below to several of the 'mandated' spending categories and they're cheap. Wars eventually end, but government entitlements (corporate & individual) just keep on growing.

    http://www.nationalpriorities.org/si..._aug4_2010.png
    That's actually talking about three different costs, the wars, the stimulus, and "entitlement" programs. I was talking only about the wars and stimulus when referring to the issue with our huge debt and that we could have been better off in trying to recover from the collapse. Especially since the Afgan war would have been over years ago if we hadn't suddenly gone "oh shiney" and invaded Iraq.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    My card rates stayed the same.. one of them even increased my credit limit without request... And I've actually been receiving MORE offers to hand cards to me... Maybe it's because I'm one of the few people that's actually responsible with my credit and have a really high credit score?

    Too bad those same rules don't apply to health insurance huh? I have yet to actually make use of my health insurance for all the years I've had it but the rates just keep going up every year.
    Last credit check had my scores over 800.....just saying.....but like I said, I don't pay interest because I pay them off each month (the little I put on them). They did increase my rate....don't know why....but it could be 30% and it wouldn'r really matter.
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  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #131  
    "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Notice how the article was worded?

    …four in 10 adults think the new law did not go far enough to change the health care system, regardless of whether they support the law, oppose it or remain neutral. On the other side, about one in five say they oppose the law because they think the federal government should not be involved in health care at all.
    Anyone see any bias here? Comparing those who think the law didn't go far enough with those who thing the government should not be involved at all? How about instead of comparing the “do-mores” with the “get-outs” wouldn’t it make more sense—and be more intellectually honest—to compare the “do-mores” with the “do-lesses”? Or to compare the “get-outs” with the “control-everythings”?
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Does universal health care lead to Hayek's economic 'road to serfdom'? I think not.

    Canada, Switzerland, Ireland, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia have both universal health care AND the highest levels of economic freedom and opportunity in the world (more than the United States)*.

    If you want another example, Denmark (with government revenues above 50% of GNP, an extensive social welfare state, and free high quality government sponsored health care) ranks roughly the same as the US in its economic freedom and opportunity*.

    *2010 Heritage Foundation Index of Economic Freedom
    Not to mention that citizens of virtually all of those countries are healthier and have a longer life expectancy than Americans, lower infant mortality, etc., etc.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Not to mention that citizens of virtually all of those countries are healthier and have a longer life expectancy than Americans, lower infant mortality, etc., etc.
    Let me know how that works out for you guys. Write if you find work!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Notice how the article was worded?



    Anyone see any bias here? Comparing those who think the law didn't go far enough with those who thing the government should not be involved at all? How about instead of comparing the “do-mores” with the “get-outs” wouldn’t it make more sense—and be more intellectually honest—to compare the “do-mores” with the “do-lesses”? Or to compare the “get-outs” with the “control-everythings”?

    Maybe if that didn't simply split the "get-outs". Pretty sure if given the "do-more", "ok with", "get-out" option the "do-less" crowd would go with the "get-out" option.

    And I believe someone else posted another poll that went into more detail that might give you your brake down analysis.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Let me know how that works out for you guys. Write if you find work!
    Because there is so much work here?

    It looks like most countries are doing better than we are...

    Unemployment Rates Around The World |
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

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  16.    #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Notice how the article was worded?



    Anyone see any bias here? Comparing those who think the law didn't go far enough with those who thing the government should not be involved at all? How about instead of comparing the “do-mores” with the “get-outs” wouldn’t it make more sense—and be more intellectually honest—to compare the “do-mores” with the “do-lesses”? Or to compare the “get-outs” with the “control-everythings”?
    Sure, just show me how you would word it. Are you suggesting that someone would fit in your "do less" category and still think the law didn't go far enough? If it's a law, it's government that's doing it, right? Just where are these "do lesses"?
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Not to mention that citizens of virtually all of those countries are healthier and have a longer life expectancy than Americans, lower infant mortality, etc., etc.
    I agree- its yet another demonstration of the merits of universal health care.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #138  
    There's a difference between doing things to fix the problems in healthcare, and taking control of healthcare. Not going far enough can mean that what was done didn't address enough of the issues, if at all. Tort reform anyone?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Actually.....policies on just children were quite common. So to say these are not common just shows you really don't know what you are talking about....sorry to put it that way, but you don't know jack

    You see....this is what is frustrating....I know the health insurance biz....and the examples I give are what I see, I don't make these up. I don't question davidra on a medical issue. If davidra says procedure XYZ is a good procedure, I would have to defer to him because he is a doctor. I deal in this stuff on a daily basis and I talk to people regarding their health insurance coverage. So children only policies were a very nice way for many families to cut their costs....until.....obama care kicked in and really took these options away from families.
    I guess your evidence was even more anecdotal than mine:

    Insurers said they were acting because the new federal requirement could create huge and unexpected costs for covering children. They said the rule might prompt parents to buy policies only after their kids became sick, producing a glut of ill youngsters to insure. As a result, they said, many companies would flee the marketplace, leaving behind a handful to shoulder a huge financial burden.

    The insurers said they now sell relatively few child-only policies, and thus the changes will have a small effect on families.
    Health insurance: Big medical insurers to stop selling new child-only policies - latimes.com
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Because there is so much work here?

    It looks like most countries are doing better than we are...

    Unemployment Rates Around The World |
    So.... what's up with the socialist mecca Spain? Wow.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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