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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl 700p View Post
    Missing in the healthcare reform is tort reform, competition with insurance companies across state lines...there are some good things in the healthcare bill, but at what cost...the size of the pie for healthcare is limited and the debate is how to slice the pie effectively and efficiently...politics as usual...however, the Democrats should have full responsibility for what this healthcare bill does to the patients, the seniors, and physicians. The insurance companies are raising their premiums so they can cover children up to age 26 and soon enough, the insurance company will be forced to insure more people...of course the premiums will go up due to the healthcare bill. The Democrats are the majority in the House and Senate. They own this mess with Healthcare Bill and fixing the economy. One can blame the previous administration only so much, but now the ball has been in the current administration's court.
    Obama said he'd support tort reform in the bill, but that offer, as well as all the other compromises that actually passed, bought him NOT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

    So, the Republicans look blameless, but they're not, and they're culpable to some extent (less than the Democrats, obviously) if things go massively wrong. However, they can claim zero credit if things go massively right.

    Also,

    Starting in 2011, insurers will have to spend at least 80% of every premium dollar on medical care. If they don't, they have to rebate the difference to consumers. So a giant rate hike would have to be traceable back to a giant increase in medical receipts. If it's not, all that money would have to be rebated to enrollees, and it wouldn't do insurers any good. In other words, rate hikes between now and 2014 would just mean rebates for the affected consumers.
    Ezra Klein - Will insurers raise rates before health-care reform?
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    It is also the plan republicans offered as a compromise to Hillary Clintons universal healthcare plan in the 90's.

    Nearly identical.
    In other words, we've thrown away a whole decade's worth of money. Cool.

    I don't remember a lot of little tiny you-know-who moustaches painted on pictures of Newt Gingrich, do you?
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    And in the case of healthcare reform, you're losing what freedoms, exactly?
    Well for starters I've already lost my health insurance coverage.

    The company I was with had to exit the market in my state because of Obamacare.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Well for starters I've already lost my health insurance coverage.

    The company I was with had to exit the market in my state because of Obamacare.
    You do realize that "Obamacare" has not been fully implemented and will not be until 2014, right?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  5. #65  
    Sunday’s Today show on NBC and Sunday Morning on CBS presented seemingly contradictory polling results on how much ObamaCare is supported by the American public, although both seemed to be citing the same AP poll. As Meet the Press host David Gregory appeared on Today, anchor Lester Holt suggested that Republicans are going against the majority of Americans in promising to repeal ObamaCare as he vaguely referred to polling data and contended, "But new polling out suggests that most people not only do they not want to, don't want it repealed, they want more added to it," and added, "Do Republicans have to refine this message and take a better look at it?" According to the AP poll as reported at msnbc.com, "four in 10 adults think the new law did not go far enough to change the health care system."

    By contrast, on Sunday Morning, CBS anchor Charles Osgood briefly recounted numbers from the AP poll which suggested that ObamaCare is unpopular. Osgood: "A poll commissioned by the Associated Press finds just 30 percent of Americans in favor of the new health care law, 30 percent are neutral, and 40 percent oppose it. Four out of 10 respondents say the new law doesn’t do enough to change the health care system."



    Read more: NBC Finds Most Americans Oppose Repeal of ObamaCare, But CBS Reports ‘Just 30%’ Favor ObamaCare
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42
    Hmmm ..
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    o and btw take a look at the Actual poll

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...ting.pdf&pli=1

    if you doubt the source its the top link from this page AP Poll data - surveys.ap.org | The Associated Press

    and if you dont want to read the whole thing ... skip to page 13
    does no one care to comment on the actual poll?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    You do realize that "Obamacare" has not been fully implemented and will not be until 2014, right?
    Yes the damage scales up over time. Great point.
  7. solarus's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    As in ~$4800.00 US per year at University of Toronto, listed here

    Top Universities in North America 2010-2011

    as better than Penn, Carnegie Mellon, Columbia, Duke, Northwestern, and the University of Washington here in the States.

    A Washington resident would pay twice that to go to school, and a non-resident would pay 5 times that. To go to a place like Columbia, you're talking 9 or 10 times that.

    Yes, just anticipating the argument that your taxes are higher than ours because of your healthcare system. I suspect that healthcare and education are only two of the benefits you receive for your money.

    I'd wager that our extra expenses for healthcare, education, etc., account for more than the difference in taxes.
    Yeah but Canadian schools don't have all those huge expensive football and basketball programs to support

    In all seriousness though your point is somewhat valid, but you can't compare the U.S. and Canada equally. Canada's population is much more densely populated than the U.S. meaning that less spending is required for general infrastructure and services - ex. roads and power lines don't have to go as far. And of course Canada doesn't spend more money than the rest of the world combined on defense.

    Are you really getting at the issue of spending priorities via a discussion on tax rates?
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Yes the damage scales up over time. Great point.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    In other words, we've thrown away a whole decade's worth of money. Cool.

    I don't remember a lot of little tiny you-know-who moustaches painted on pictures of Newt Gingrich, do you?
    Last I saw sporting that moustache was Sarah Palin.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #70  
    I'm not sure how this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Jives with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    o and btw take a look at the Actual poll

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...ting.pdf&pli=1

    if you doubt the source its the top link from this page AP Poll data - surveys.ap.org | The Associated Press

    and if you dont want to read the whole thing ... skip to page 13
    Somebody help me out here? One set indicates that everyone is clammering for Obamacare, the other set shows just the opposite.

    What's a lay person supposed to do? Just trust the politicians to tell them what's what?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    bull. If thats what they told you, you got duped.
    Yes because you know better than they do what their own balance sheets say.

    Never let facts get in the way of a bad argument eh?
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    The "rebuttle poll" you posted is misleading. It only asks if people are happy with healthcare. It doesnt ask why and doesnt ask what they want. There is poor correlation in that poll.

    The OP's poll asks directly, do you want universal healthcare? and the majority of americans do.

    It has been commonplace that americans have overwhelmingly supported universal healthcare for the last 20 years.
    You may have a point. It's just Obamacare that they dislike so bad.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13.    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Well for starters I've already lost my health insurance coverage.

    The company I was with had to exit the market in my state because of Obamacare.
    Would you like to rephrase that? They had to, or they chose to because they wanted to maximize their profits to their shareholders? And you're left without coverage, and you chose to blame Obama and not the insurance company. I think that's what you meant.

    There's a good solution....single payor.
  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You may have a point. It's just Obamacare that they dislike so bad.
    Yep...because it didn't go far enough. Maybe it will soon.
  15. #75  
    These questions from that poll seem telling about where people think high costs are coming from:

    HP4. Do you think the COST of health INSURANCE in the United States is…
    HIGHER than it should be 84
    LOWER than it should be 4
    ABOUT what it should be 12
    Refused 0

    HP5. Do you think the COST of health care in the United States is…
    HIGHER than it should be 86
    LOWER than it should be 3
    ABOUT what it should be 10
    Refused 1

    HP6. Do you think the COST of prescription drugs in the United States is…
    HIGHER than it should be 83
    LOWER than it should be 3
    ABOUT what it should be 14
    Refused 1

    HP8. Do you think most DOCTORS in the United States make…
    Too much money OR 46
    Not enough money OR 8
    About the right amount of money 45
    Refused 1

    HP9. Do you think most HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES in the United States make…
    Too much profit OR 84
    Not enough profit OR 2
    About the right amount of profit 13
    Refused 1

    HP10. Do you think most COMPANIES that make PRESCRIPTION DRUGS in the United States
    make…
    Too much profit OR 83
    Not enough profit OR 2
    About the right amount of profit 14
    Refused 1
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    These questions from that poll seem telling about where people think high costs are coming from:
    where is the poll question that asks' "do you think the government can improve the costs for our healthcare system?" and "do you think the government should be the one to try to fix the high costs of healthcare?"

    pretty sure most would say "no"

    that's why polls are so misleading.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    most of those respondents didnt know anything about the healthcare law. did you read the first few pages?
    Huh? What does knowing about healthcare law have anything to do with it? That said, what exactly is healthcare law? lol
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep...because it didn't go far enough. Maybe it will soon.
    Not sure where you pulled that out of the surveys, but if you say so...
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Would you like to rephrase that? They had to, or they chose to because they wanted to maximize their profits to their shareholders? And you're left without coverage, and you chose to blame Obama and not the insurance company. I think that's what you meant.

    There's a good solution....single payor.
    Not all companies have shareholders. And from what I've heard, they are laying people off because they can't pay them, period - not to maximize profits to those evil greedy shareholders.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    its there, it just isnt written in republican
    lol! good one! problem is, I don't speak republican either
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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