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  1. #681  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Only when arguing with you. And that's an absolute slam dunk.
    Keep dreaming. Bring that weak dunk in here and you'll find yourself back on the floor. I at least give you some credit when it comes to medical issues or issues involving the physician perspective. But you act like you know more than me when it comes to health insurance....and yet I've had to explain something as simple as how an HSA works to you. Of course, you won't admit that you were wrong...but you can't help that....you're a physician....you're GOD!
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  2. #682  
    Quote Originally Posted by sweaner View Post
    Micael, how exactly are doctors overcharging? I can charge a million dollars to see a patient, but only get what the insurance company or Medicare allows. What are the "margins" that hospitals are getting, as most are not profiting at all and are going out of business?

    How many other professions are obligated to provide their services regardless of whether any payment will be made?
    Not Micael.....but just got word again today from Aetna that another hospital is being dropped from their network. The reason, Alexian Brothers Health System in Chicago was requesting a rate increase in excess of 12%. Really? Wanting to increase fees by 12%? How can this be? And yes, you must accept the final negotiated rates when a patient comes in, but if the doctors and hospitals continue to push the rates up higher at negotiation time, the fees keep going up which in turn pushes up premiums. Fortunately, some insurance companies are finally just saying "sorry, we simply can't accept these higher fees and so we will drop you from the network."
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  3.    #683  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Keep dreaming. Bring that weak dunk in here and you'll find yourself back on the floor. I at least give you some credit when it comes to medical issues or issues involving the physician perspective. But you act like you know more than me when it comes to health insurance....and yet I've had to explain something as simple as how an HSA works to you. Of course, you won't admit that you were wrong...but you can't help that....you're a physician....you're GOD!

    Right. You keep that fantasy that you had to explain what an HSA does. But I have admitted several times I do not consider myself particularly knowledgable about the fine points of insurance. That doesn't mean that HSA's are good. They're not. All you have to do is come up with some way that private insurance will meet the primary goal of providing quality care for every citizen who needs it.

    Oh...and by the way, does being an expert in HSA's, or any insurance, provide you with any useful knowledge about what providing care to people is about? Somehow I never realized that was part of insurance school.
  4.    #684  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Not Micael.....but just got word again today from Aetna that another hospital is being dropped from their network. The reason, Alexian Brothers Health System in Chicago was requesting a rate increase in excess of 12%. Really? Wanting to increase fees by 12%? How can this be? And yes, you must accept the final negotiated rates when a patient comes in, but if the doctors and hospitals continue to push the rates up higher at negotiation time, the fees keep going up which in turn pushes up premiums. Fortunately, some insurance companies are finally just saying "sorry, we simply can't accept these higher fees and so we will drop you from the network."
    Yeah, I find it kind of amusing that for-profit health systems and for-profit insurance companies are putting each other out of business. A bad thing? I don't think so. Both need a readjustment, and neither wants a health care system that will really control costs. Wonder why?

    Just another great argument for a single-payor system. Keep it up.
  5. #685  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    As I've posted many times (feel free to look back in this very thread; I don't feel obligated), from 70 to 80% of the uninsured are from working families. Working families pay taxes, by and large. When you find something that disagrees with that, you let me know.

    pop 300000000

    unemployed 30000000

    yet 70-80% of the uninsured are working?
  6. #686  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Apparently you didn't pick up on the sarcasm.....perhaps it is the people who are reporting how great the VA system is that are....well....maybe not being completely honest? As I said, you presented articles saying how great the VA system is and it just has me wondering why the VA here has trouble with very basic medical supplies for our Veterans. The doctor who comes to our meeting about once a year says they don't have some very basic supplies and he always thanks us for the monetary gift that will go towards these supplies. We have not had a non government provider come to us asking for help with basic supplies. Just saying.
    no I did not pick up on the sarcasm. But if you say so, I accept that. But now it sounds like instead of calling the VA doctors liars, the sources of the articles are now the liars, or excuse me....not completely honest, which makes me think that attack the messenger is still your strategy here.

    Anyway, if you did contribute to the VA with something, good for you! But keep in mind all hospitals, private and public alike, are willing to accept donations for supplies, or for whatever you want to give them. And they will talk about how they don't have something they need. Its the typical schtick, but its for a good cause. For example, I made contributions for Cedar Sinai and City of Hope Medical Centers when I was in LA last year, and was glad to contribute. But its not like I thought either of them were having financial problems. My motivation was that they did good work and I wanted to help them.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #687  
    Quote Originally Posted by sweaner View Post
    Micael, how exactly are doctors overcharging? I can charge a million dollars to see a patient, but only get what the insurance company or Medicare allows. What are the "margins" that hospitals are getting, as most are not profiting at all and are going out of business?

    How many other professions are obligated to provide their services regardless of whether any payment will be made?
    Hi sweaner. You think I'm making those numbers up, that's your right. It's a simple google search. And if you don't think doctors aren't involved in fraud waste and abuse, you're simply choosing to ignore documented fact.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #688  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    As I've posted many times (feel free to look back in this very thread; I don't feel obligated), from 70 to 80% of the uninsured are from working families. Working families pay taxes, by and large. When you find something that disagrees with that, you let me know.
    I will find a link, but I believe that more than 40% of americans pay no income tax...
  9.    #689  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I will find a link, but I believe that more than 40% of americans pay no income tax...

    More than 50 million Americans, including more than 7 million children, are uninsured. More than 8 out of 10 are in working families. Living without health insurance is a risk no one should have to take.
    Every 24 minutes, someone in America dies because they were uninsured and could not get the care they needed.
    Robert Wood Johnson Foundation

    Just one example. Overall, around 80% or more of the uninsured are from working families. Unless you can demonstrate that those particular working families don't pay taxes (which is very unlikely, since they are not on "welfare" and have an income), they will definitively be helping to pay for their own insurance.

    And if you're a kid in Texas, it's even worse.

    Nine out of ten uninsured children in Texas live in working families. More than half of all uninsured children in Texas are from families with moderate incomes. Most uninsured Texas children live in two-parent families in which the family head has a high school education or more and works full-time throughout the year.This report provides a statistical portrait of the families of children without health insurance in Texas based on the most recent available data from the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey.
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Last edited by davidra; 11/11/2010 at 04:51 AM.
  10.    #690  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hi sweaner. You think I'm making those numbers up, that's your right. It's a simple google search. And if you don't think doctors aren't involved in fraud waste and abuse, you're simply choosing to ignore documented fact.

    Funny, I don't recall anyone saying doctors aren't involved in all of those things, especially waste. All of those things can be (and are being, in terms of fraud) addressed by the new bill. Of course, the governor elect of Florida was directly involved in the largest insurance fraud in history that stole money from Medicare recipients, but hey, why just talk about insurance fraud, let's just get republicans to elect them to higher office?

    You know, you'd have a much stronger argument if you would just address the one item you ignore constantly:

    With the exception of the occasional disease management program and call-in help line, insurance companies provide no direct services to patients, yet take 25% of the health care dollar. Why should we continue to pay them for providing no care? If it's an issue of distributing risk, doesn't it make more sense to distribute risk across everyone in the country, and while you're doing it, save about 15% of that overhead cost? Try to look at it as an unbiased observer for once. Our current system makes no sense.
  11. #691  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    With the exception of the occasional disease management program and call-in help line, insurance companies provide no direct services to patients, yet take 25% of the health care dollar. Why should we continue to pay them for providing no care? If it's an issue of distributing risk, doesn't it make more sense to distribute risk across everyone in the country, and while you're doing it, save about 15% of that overhead cost? Try to look at it as an unbiased observer for once. Our current system makes no sense.
    You know, you continue beat this drum about how cheap the Federal Govt can do anything and how expensive the overhead of insurance companies is. I know you've posted all kinds of things to verify this, but I don't know, something tells me the employees to manage all this health care will cost more than the private sector. Here is something from USA Today that discusses how much more govt employees get paid vs private sector employees. This doesn't even consider the benefits! I was floored when I saw how much the average govt EE got in benefits vs the private sector EE.....about a $30k difference! I almost think that has to be a misprint....maybe it is....but none-the-less, it's safe to say the benefits the avg Govt EE gets vs the Private Sector EE are much better. I just think you are in major "la-la" land if you think there will be major savings. Here is the link:

    Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com

    Of course, they try and defend why this is, and one such defense is because the government employees tend to be older and have been in that job for longer. But that is one of the key problems with these government jobs, people get them and it is next to impossible to get fired or layed off! So, as obama continues to increase the size of government, it's a nice paying job if you can get it.
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  12. #692  
    I think even "working families" can end up paying no Federal taxes. Are you saying that these "working families" would be paying into their health care via taxes? And let me ask you something, if they can't afford current premiums (not questioning that, I know that is true), how low will their premiums (taxes) have to go before they can want to afford these benefits. You make fun of my example of the 2 employees who didn't want to spend $56 per month (again, THEIR portion, NOT the total premium!) for health benefits, so exactly how much will these people have to pay for these benefits? $300 per month for a family of 4? $500? Can they afford this or is this another case where we turn to those making over $250k and ask them to carry the burden of paying everyone's premium?
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #693  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    With the exception of the occasional disease management program and call-in help line, insurance companies provide no direct services to patients, yet take 25% of the health care dollar.
    Where did you get this figure please?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #694  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You know, you continue beat this drum about how cheap the Federal Govt can do anything and how expensive the overhead of insurance companies is. I know you've posted all kinds of things to verify this, but I don't know, something tells me the employees to manage all this health care will cost more than the private sector. Here is something from USA Today that discusses how much more govt employees get paid vs private sector employees. This doesn't even consider the benefits! I was floored when I saw how much the average govt EE got in benefits vs the private sector EE.....about a $30k difference! I almost think that has to be a misprint....maybe it is....but none-the-less, it's safe to say the benefits the avg Govt EE gets vs the Private Sector EE are much better. I just think you are in major "la-la" land if you think there will be major savings. Here is the link:

    Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com

    Of course, they try and defend why this is, and one such defense is because the government employees tend to be older and have been in that job for longer. But that is one of the key problems with these government jobs, people get them and it is next to impossible to get fired or layed off! So, as obama continues to increase the size of government, it's a nice paying job if you can get it.
    It has a lot to do with education level...

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...yees-overpaid/
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  15.    #695  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Where did you get this figure please?

    Administrative Costs Account for Much of Healthcare Spending

    ��
    30 cents out of every healthcare dollar spent in the United States goes to
    administration, including the submission of claims, billing and collection. Yet
    three-quarters of Americans surveyed believe that administrative overhead
    should cost less than ten cents of every healthcare dollar.
    ��


    [LEFT]Seven in ten consumers said they would be highly upset to find out that the
    administrative overhead defined as filing, billing and medical claims was as
    much 30 percent.
    https://www.pnc.com/webapp/unsec/Req...bc87fc6d630ad7

    At $1.8 trillion annually, the private health insurance industry administers 70% of the total $2.5 trillion US health care annual spend.
    Whether for profit or non profit, the private health insurance industry is lucrative. In fact, of the $1.8 trillion private health insurance industry, 31% goes directly to private health insurance industry administrative costs and income. So, for every US health care dollar spent by privately insured Americans, an average of 31 cents goes to the US private health insurers' administration and income, or approximately $580 billion annually.
    DemocracyForAmerica.com Blog Analysis of Private Health...


    How many do you want? Yes, there's some variability in the numbers....but not much.

    Of course, you can act like Clem and say "well, you keep posting data and real numbers, but it just doesn't seem right to me, so it must be lies".
  16.    #696  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I think even "working families" can end up paying no Federal taxes. Are you saying that these "working families" would be paying into their health care via taxes? And let me ask you something, if they can't afford current premiums (not questioning that, I know that is true), how low will their premiums (taxes) have to go before they can want to afford these benefits. You make fun of my example of the 2 employees who didn't want to spend $56 per month (again, THEIR portion, NOT the total premium!) for health benefits, so exactly how much will these people have to pay for these benefits? $300 per month for a family of 4? $500? Can they afford this or is this another case where we turn to those making over $250k and ask them to carry the burden of paying everyone's premium?

    You got it. We raise taxes enough so that there is no premium. Copays, maybe. You get sick, you're covered. You lose your job, you're covered. You get a bad disease, you're covered. Employers no longer have to worry about those benefits. Everybody wins....except for insurance companies (who will go away) and providers, who will have their reimbursements more tightly controlled. Works for me.
  17. #697  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You got it. We raise taxes enough so that there is no premium. Copays, maybe. You get sick, you're covered. You lose your job, you're covered. You get a bad disease, you're covered. Employers no longer have to worry about those benefits. Everybody wins....except for insurance companies (who will go away) and providers, who will have their reimbursements more tightly controlled. Works for me.
    Wow, that's just plain socialism. We have to start with core principles. Everything you argue is "the ends justify the means" and I can't accept that. America wouldn't be what it is today if our founding fathers embraced that crap.

    further, the cost of healthcare would still be too much even if admin costs were reduced to zero. just as a car wouldn't be free if the auto workers didn't get paid. We have to stay true to our principles, which include protection of private property, personal liberty, and restrictions on federal powers.

    On the topic of costs, here is an interesting article. I'm assuming the author is writing it to prove his bias, but it's still an interesting read:
    http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/re...ublication.pdf
  18.    #698  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Wow, that's just plain socialism. We have to start with core principles. Everything you argue is "the ends justify the means" and I can't accept that. America wouldn't be what it is today if our founding fathers embraced that crap.

    further, the cost of healthcare would still be too much even if admin costs were reduced to zero. just as a car wouldn't be free if the auto workers didn't get paid. We have to stay true to our principles, which include protection of private property, personal liberty, and restrictions on federal powers.

    On the topic of costs, here is an interesting article. I'm assuming the author is writing it to prove his bias, but it's still an interesting read:
    http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/re...ublication.pdf
    First, we provide education to everyone. It's not outlined in the constitution. We provide it because it's important for our country to be educated, and because we think everyone should have the opportunity to be educated. You may see some major difference between that and having access to health care, but I don't. It's no more socialist than education, or the military (don't bother saying "it's in the Constitution". I know that, but it still meets your definition of socialism). And do you really think you know how the founding fathers would feel about people not having access to health care? Let me reassure you....you don't.

    Interesting, too....by your definition, we are the only country in the developed world that isn't socialist. Good for us. Whoopee.

    There is probably some truth to the fact that it's difficult to estimate the exact overhead for Medicare....but nobody could begin to estimate that the differences aren't significantly in favor of Medicare when compared to private insurers. A massive amount of money would be saved by the government as a single payor....that's right, and everyone knows it. The major reason for the difference in overhead is that Medicare used the simple methods of payments for large numbers of people that were developed for Social Security, while private insurance has never tried to decrease their overhead....they've never had to before. Now they will, or get out. Believe me, they could do it....they're capitalists, right? They can do anything.
    Last edited by davidra; 11/11/2010 at 06:32 PM.
  19. #699  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    First, we provide education to everyone. It's not outlined in the constitution. We provide it because it's important for our country to be educated, and because we think everyone should have the opportunity to be educated. You may see some major difference between that and having access to health care, but I don't. It's no more socialist than education, or the military (don't bother saying "it's in the Constitution". I know that, but it still meets your definition of socialism). And do you really think you know how the founding fathers would feel about people not having access to health care? Let me reassure you....you don't.

    Interesting, too....by your definition, we are the only country in the developed world that isn't socialist. Good for us. Whoopee.

    There is probably some truth to the fact that it's difficult to estimate the exact overhead for Medicare....but nobody could begin to estimate that the differences aren't significantly in favor of Medicare when compared to private insurers. A massive amount of money would be saved by the government as a single payor....that's right, and everyone knows it. The major reason for the difference in overhead is that Medicare used the simple methods of payments for large numbers of people that were developed for Social Security, while private insurance has never tried to decrease their overhead....they've never had to before. Now they will, or get out. Believe me, they could do it....they're capitalists, right? They can do anything.
    Isn't it State and local governments that provide for the vast majority of education funding? So "we" is actually the States, not the Federal government. Everyone loves to use education as an example of something the Federal government does....but....really, isn't it the State and local governments that fund education? And the reason for this is because since education is not mentioned in the Constitution it falls on the States to handle....and therefore, I have no problem with them providing it.

    If any government entity is to get involved in healthcare it should be the States for the same reason as mention above....it isn't a specific power of the Federal government to provide it. Sorry.....just isn't.

    And davidra, no, not everyone agrees that a "massive amount of money" would be saved by the Federal government running healthcare. You say that, but no, not everyone believes that. In fact, it's kind of funny to even think of the Federal government saving a massive amount of money....spending a massive amount of money....yes....saving a massive amount of money....no.
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  20. #700  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Wow, that's just plain socialism. We have to start with core principles. Everything you argue is "the ends justify the means" and I can't accept that. America wouldn't be what it is today if our founding fathers embraced that crap.

    further, the cost of healthcare would still be too much even if admin costs were reduced to zero. just as a car wouldn't be free if the auto workers didn't get paid. We have to stay true to our principles, which include protection of private property, personal liberty, and restrictions on federal powers.

    On the topic of costs, here is an interesting article. I'm assuming the author is writing it to prove his bias, but it's still an interesting read:
    http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/re...ublication.pdf
    Of course it's socialism......davidra = obama and obama = socialism, so it's only logical that davidra believe in a socialistic society. Spread the wealth baby....spread the wealth.....everyone needs to share or obama will come for ya.
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