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  1. #661  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    That's actually a great suggestion. Everyone who pays taxes can contribute. I suspect that a very large percentage of those 30 or 60 million do pay taxes now; it wouldn't take much of an increase to provide for everyone. Right? Just more and more arguments for a single payor system.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Data, please.
    Mind if I borrow that line?
  2.    #662  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Apparently you hear only what you want to hear.

    The problem has never been about insurance costs.

    As much as you rail against the few insurance company ceo's, their combined income doesn't show up as a blip when compared to the overcharging, fraud, waste, and abuse of the 'system' by doctors, drug manufacturers, hospital administrators, and lawsuit-happy lawyers.

    How about putting as much effort into cleaning your own house as you put in to criticizing others?
    Because drug manufacturers, hospital administrators, and lawyers are not "my own house". They deserve as much, if not more, criticism as insurance companies. Given that part of my career was dedicated to unmasking the negative influence of drug companies on clinical care, research, and education, I couldn't agree with you more about that. In fact, just last year we banned all drug detail persons from our hospital. I'm sure you agree with that intrusion into the free market, don't you? And as far as doctors are concerned, another major portion of my time over the past 25 years has been trying to train doctors to order only evidence-based treatments and tests that are proven to be useful. I think I do pretty well in terms of working on that side of things. Tell me, what have you done to decrease the costs of health care? Oh....that's right. Nothing. You have supported the republican agenda, which has never once addressed health care costs except to increase them (Medicare part D). So please...don't bother to lecture me.
  3.    #663  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjgem View Post
    Mind if I borrow that line?
    As I've posted many times (feel free to look back in this very thread; I don't feel obligated), from 70 to 80% of the uninsured are from working families. Working families pay taxes, by and large. When you find something that disagrees with that, you let me know.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #664  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Tell me, what have you done to decrease the costs of health care? Oh....that's right. Nothing. You have supported the republican agenda, which has never once addressed health care costs except to increase them (Medicare part D). So please...don't bother to lecture me.
    I'm sorry, but where exactly are all the health care cost savings measures in the poc bill that was shoved down our throats by Obama?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5.    #665  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm sorry, but where exactly are all the health care cost savings measures in the poc bill that was shoved down our throats by Obama?

    I guess we'll find out after the republicans are ignored by the courts and the senate, and the bill gets implemented, won't we? When insurance companies are actually forced to compete or get out of the business; when hospitals no longer have to pass overcharges along to payors; when more fraud is stopped by the administration (the breaking of the two largest fraud cases in history have been directly related to new powers related to the law); when providers are financially encouraged to use cost-effective treatments instead of being given carte blanche....who knows? The possibilities are endless.

    But as you know, I don't consider them equally important. The most important thing is access to high quality care for all. Cost controls don't necessarily have to be a part, and can't be now because of the republican obstructionist philosophy, which has resulted in no public option (which would have forced competition) and no single payor plan, by which we could really control reimbursement costs. But that's coming, don't worry your pretty little head.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #666  
    Right. The republicans are simple obstructionists. Could the fact that this bill is a poc have anything to do with their activity?

    This bill needs to be repealed, defunded, cut to ribbons, whatever it takes.

    Guess now they'll be the plumbers.

    Once that's done, then they can focus on the economy, which is what should have been the actual focus during the first two years of this *****'s presidency.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #667  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Perhaps Canada can open their door to allow for an additional 30 million people who aren't citizens to drain their citizen's money?
    Actually, that is an issue here as well. A very large issue, considering our pop vs yours, we probably have a larger per capita problem than you do south of the border. Those 30 million you speak of, equal our population, give or take a million or two.
    Welcome to globalization folks, no borders, FREE TRADE, of populations and goods and services. As to the "illegal" population, that has been a problem for centuries, with most countries.
    As to your costs, well, thats a free market for you, they will charge what the market will stand.
    Perhaps your right, do away with Obamacare, watch your system implode. its the free market way. lets see how many hospitals are left when the smoke clears. How many doctors are left. how much it will cost to set a broken arm or leg. So ya, lets do it the free market way. I really wanna see this happen, to prove you right. Lets end Obama care today. oh wait, it hasnt been enacted yet. ololol
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  8.    #668  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Right. The republicans are simple obstructionists. Could the fact that this bill is a poc have anything to do with their activity?

    This bill needs to be repealed, defunded, cut to ribbons, whatever it takes.

    Guess now they'll be the plumbers.

    Once that's done, then they can focus on the economy, which is what should have been the actual focus during the first two years of this *****'s presidency.

    Midterm voters favor repealing part or all of the bill, but not the American people as a whole (24% favoring complete repeal....not exactly "the American people" as characterized by the republicans), and very close to the number of people that think the law should be expanded. I hope they try vigorously to repeal it. That will just show the country that they really just don't care about moving the country forward, but would rather continue to play politics with the good of the country a distant second priority to Obama's second term....just as McConnell stated publicly. Please....continue to reinforce the evidence that the republicans don't care about the citizens...just about big business and its ongoing support of their party, and to please that vocal 25% that makes up their base. Bring it on.....



    Kaiser Health Tracking Poll -- November 2010

    The November 2010 tracking poll was conducted in the days following the mid-term election that resulted in major gains for Republicans, including a shift in control of the House of Representatives. The survey attempts to gauge what role health reform played in voters’ decisions, and to measure the current public mood about the health reform law.

    The poll finds that voters say health care reform was a factor that influenced their vote, but not a dominant one. The economy/jobs was the factor mentioned by voters most often (29%), followed by party preference (25%) and views of the candidates themselves (21%). Health care ranked fourth at 17 percent. Those 17 percent of voters who named health care as one of their top voting factors were more likely than non-health care voters to back a Republican candidate for Congress (59% vs. 44%), and to say they have a “very unfavorable” view of the law (56% vs. 33%).

    Looking ahead, Americans remain divided about what lawmakers should do, with 21 percent of the public favoring expansion of the health reform law, 19 percent wanting to leave it as is, a quarter wanting to repeal parts of the law, and 24 percent wanting the entire law repealed. Among mid-term voters, a majority (56%) would like to see the law repealed entirely or in part. Voters split sharply along partisan lines. Two-thirds of those who voted for Democratic candidates want the law expanded or left as is, while and eight in 10 of those who voted Republican support full or partial repeal.

    Several key provisions of health reform remain popular, even among those who support repeal of all or parts of the law. Majorities of supporters of repeal would like to keep tax credits for small businesses offering coverage; the prohibition on insurance companies denying coverage based on medical history or health condition; the gradual closing of the Medicare prescription drug “doughnut hole”; and financial subsidies to help low and moderate income Americans purchase coverage. By contrast, two-thirds of the general public support repealing the individual mandate, another key provision in the law.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #669  
    Yeah, polls are funny things. Far more than Republican's are against this bill. You keep on your track, David. Meanwhile don't be surprised when the Republicans gather more seats in the House, and take control of the Senate come 2012.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10.    #670  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yeah, polls are funny things. Far more than Republican's are against this bill. You keep on your track, David. Meanwhile don't be surprised when the Republicans gather more seats in the House, and take control of the Senate come 2012.
    Not a chance that will happen. History says you're wrong. The economy is already getting better, the tea party will turn the republicans into even more extreme obstructionists than they already are, and Obama will cruise to a victory. I can only hope he runs against Palin; that will ensure a dominant majority in both houses.
  11. #671  
    how will the presidential nomination of Palin prevent the Republicans from winning senate seats?

    what history says he is wrong? If the economy rebounds sufficiently by 2012 (big 'if"), the democrats would be in strong position if and only if they can sell it as their win. now that the republicans have the House, a few big named economic initiatives come out of the house and the republicans would have a decent shot at claiming that THEY brought the economy back.

    Hard to believe you think you can predict politics 2 years in advance with absolute accuracy.
  12. #672  
    by the way, Davidra, the numbers do not back up your assertions. Far more democratic seats are up for grabs in 2012 than republicans in the senate (therefore it would be very difficult, even unlikely for democrats to gain seats). They will probably be hoping to hold their ground.
    Last edited by Courousant; 11/10/2010 at 04:47 PM. Reason: *sorry, more democratic senate seats will be up for grabs, but I shouldn't have included the House of representatives.
  13. #673  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not a chance that will happen. History says you're wrong. The economy is already getting better, the tea party will turn the republicans into even more extreme obstructionists than they already are, and Obama will cruise to a victory. I can only hope he runs against Palin; that will ensure a dominant majority in both houses.
    the economy isn't getting better. Until I lost my job this month, I was selling technology to large enterprises. there are very few industries that aren't continuing to cut capital spending and headcount. more people drop off the unemployment rolls because the benefits run out than sign up as new claims.

    home ownership and housing prices continue to decline. if this is a recovery, it's a jobless recovery. at the current rate of "job creation" it would take 12 years to get back to the employment levels before the banking crisis.
  14. #674  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not a chance that will happen. History says you're wrong. The economy is already getting better, the tea party will turn the republicans into even more extreme obstructionists than they already are, and Obama will cruise to a victory. I can only hope he runs against Palin; that will ensure a dominant majority in both houses.
    Ahhhhh....the great davidra makes his predictions. Other than within the last few months, you were pretty upbeat about the democrats maintaining control. However, people have finally realized that obama's goal is to turn us more into a socialistic society, and the vast majority of Americans do not want to become a Europe. The Independents, which won the election for obama, have realized their mistake and I don't think they will change their mind, especially when the debt is sky high and inflation is on the rise. You think everyone will be happy when inflation is 8, 9 or 10%? And just as the democrats were running around blaming Bush for everything under the sun, Republicans will be able to blame obama for high unemployment and high inflation. Yes, the economy may be doing better by then, but unemployment will likely remain high. This Federal Government purchasing of debt could be disastrous.

    The only thing that might save this country from the debt is this: Deficit Advisers Back Sweeping Cuts - WSJ.com

    This is the panel that obama set up....it will be interesting to see if this was just another obama "for show" event, or, if he is willing to accept what they have to say. Read the article....finally some people interested in reducing the deb by cutting things rather than the liberal answer to everything of "raise the taxes on the wealthy". Maybe there is hope.....maybe.
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  15.    #675  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    how will the presidential nomination of Palin prevent the Republicans from winning senate seats?

    what history says he is wrong? If the economy rebounds sufficiently by 2012 (big 'if"), the democrats would be in strong position if and only if they can sell it as their win. now that the republicans have the House, a few big named economic initiatives come out of the house and the republicans would have a decent shot at claiming that THEY brought the economy back.

    Hard to believe you think you can predict politics 2 years in advance with absolute accuracy.
    History....like Reagan and Clinton, both of whom had presidencies just like Obama's (except Reagan's approvals were lower at corresponding times in his administration), both of whom lost big in midterms, and both of whom kicked **** in the next presidential election. Same thing will happen here. The economy is clearly improving. It's amazing how conveniently people forget that we were losing 800,000 jobs per month when Obama took office, and we've shown a steady gain in jobs ever since. Do you really think that's going to stop? Not a chance. If republicans had their way, there would currently be no GM, making a great profit and supporting thousands and thousands of jobs. People can only be scared by lies for a short period of time before they figure out that there really is nothing to be afraid of. If the house leadership does nothing for two years, somebody might actually notice. Of course, it helps that the republicans have no choice for a leader that won't fragment their party.
  16. #676  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    how will the presidential nomination of Palin prevent the Republicans from winning senate seats?

    what history says he is wrong? If the economy rebounds sufficiently by 2012 (big 'if"), the democrats would be in strong position if and only if they can sell it as their win. now that the republicans have the House, a few big named economic initiatives come out of the house and the republicans would have a decent shot at claiming that THEY brought the economy back.

    Hard to believe you think you can predict politics 2 years in advance with absolute accuracy.
    You must be new in here....davidra knows everything on any subject and is simply never wrong. In fact, you should probably go ahead and just apologize to him because he is always right...go ahead, ask him.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  17.    #677  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Ahhhhh....the great davidra makes his predictions. Other than within the last few months, you were pretty upbeat about the democrats maintaining control. However, people have finally realized that obama's goal is to turn us more into a socialistic society, and the vast majority of Americans do not want to become a Europe. The Independents, which won the election for obama, have realized their mistake and I don't think they will change their mind, especially when the debt is sky high and inflation is on the rise. You think everyone will be happy when inflation is 8, 9 or 10%? And just as the democrats were running around blaming Bush for everything under the sun, Republicans will be able to blame obama for high unemployment and high inflation. Yes, the economy may be doing better by then, but unemployment will likely remain high. This Federal Government purchasing of debt could be disastrous.

    The only thing that might save this country from the debt is this: Deficit Advisers Back Sweeping Cuts - WSJ.com

    This is the panel that obama set up....it will be interesting to see if this was just another obama "for show" event, or, if he is willing to accept what they have to say. Read the article....finally some people interested in reducing the deb by cutting things rather than the liberal answer to everything of "raise the taxes on the wealthy". Maybe there is hope.....maybe.
    Really, you're kidding, right? People hate the republicans even more than they hate the democrats. You really think this election demonstrated a long-term love affair with the GOP? Even you know better than that. The republicans are now in a situation of actually having to do something...and a third of them are essentially libertarians. Good luck with that. But this is all OT and belongs in a political thread....not a thread about people who need health care.
  18.    #678  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You must be new in here....davidra knows everything on any subject and is simply never wrong. In fact, you should probably go ahead and just apologize to him because he is always right...go ahead, ask him.
    Only when arguing with you. And that's an absolute slam dunk.
  19. #679  
    because I like dying alone, unassisted. Blah. Not really. I liked McCain's idea to open interstate sale of insurances. I would like more choice. I would like to not have to pay for the option of abortions and mammograms, since I'm a dude. I would like to be able to choose limited tort so I can't sue for more than X amount of dollars in medical malpractice, if it drives down premiums. I dislike mandates. I am an employed fully contributing member of US society but if I choose to disobey the mandate then I will be taxed by the IRS and if I do not comply I will be jailed and removed from a society in which I function perfectly without this mandate.
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    #680  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Apparently you hear only what you want to hear.

    The problem has never been about insurance costs.

    As much as you rail against the few insurance company ceo's, their combined income doesn't show up as a blip when compared to the overcharging, fraud, waste, and abuse of the 'system' by doctors, drug manufacturers, hospital administrators, and lawsuit-happy lawyers.

    How about putting as much effort into cleaning your own house as you put in to criticizing others?
    Micael, how exactly are doctors overcharging? I can charge a million dollars to see a patient, but only get what the insurance company or Medicare allows. What are the "margins" that hospitals are getting, as most are not profiting at all and are going out of business?

    How many other professions are obligated to provide their services regardless of whether any payment will be made?

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