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  1.    #581  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yup....this will reduce the deficit Just remember, the CBO numbers that I GUARANTEE will be proven to be way off in 10 years (likely sooner), were not based on a single-payer system and were based on many assumptions that likely won't happen. So, the single payor system that you continue to tout as the Rx for our medical problems will absolutely bankrupt this country, just as Medicare and Social Security will do if drastic changes aren't made to them. It's amazing how you completely ignore the funding of these magical plans of yours when we all know that they can't last at their current pace:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/bu...cial.html?_r=1

    Social Security, Medicare Face Insolvency Sooner - WSJ.com

    As Mattykinsx discusses, we just don't have the money to do everything that everyone wants, at least not in the real world....only in the fantasy world that you seem to live in. Where apparently money just falls from the sky. Your answer to everything is to implement a single payor system and to pay for it with defense cuts....davidra saves us all!
    After having spent a weekend at Isle of Palms, I have a great idea of how to get money. It starts with increasing taxes on the rich, just as noted by David Stockman. I notice you haven't mentioned that link. I suggest you watch it, since your hero trusted this guy to run his budget. A means test for Medicare would make sense and also save more than enough money to improve the solvency of Medicare, especially when combined with the aggressive anti-fraud efforts of the current administration.

    And I don't really care about "everything that everone wants". I only care about everybody having access to high quality health care. When I see you and your ilk refusing their Medicare and Social Security because it will bankrupt the country, I might actually listen to the arguments. If you really care about your country, then speak up and insist your parents send back their checks and buy health insurance. Until then, I will assume that like other developed countries in the world, the idea of universal care can be accomplished in this country. We're not as backward as you would like us to be.
  2. #582  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    After having spent a weekend at Isle of Palms, I have a great idea of how to get money. It starts with increasing taxes on the rich, just as noted by David Stockman. I notice you haven't mentioned that link. I suggest you watch it, since your hero trusted this guy to run his budget. A means test for Medicare would make sense and also save more than enough money to improve the solvency of Medicare, especially when combined with the aggressive anti-fraud efforts of the current administration.

    And I don't really care about "everything that everone wants". I only care about everybody having access to high quality health care. When I see you and your ilk refusing their Medicare and Social Security because it will bankrupt the country, I might actually listen to the arguments. If you really care about your country, then speak up and insist your parents send back their checks and buy health insurance. Until then, I will assume that like other developed countries in the world, the idea of universal care can be accomplished in this country. We're not as backward as you would like us to be.
    You were at Isle of Palms and didn't contact me for a beer???? I live in the town you had to go through to get to Isle of Palms, the place where the rich hang out and play. Of course, you are one of the rich, so it makes sense you would be hanging out there. I would have met you for a beer and watched the GA/FL game! Congrats on winning that one....I was actually pulling for the Gators for a change.

    You always say that about receiving Social Security or Medicare, to just refuse taking them. Tell you what, can you arrange for me to get what I paid into the system for them back with interest? Why would anyone who has been forced to pay for a benefit decline it? Now, if this was optional...and I still paid into the system....and complained, then you'd have a point. But unless you know how to waive off of these things then it would be really stupid to not accept what one has paid for.

    I did watch that 60 Minutes piece last night. That is his opinion and doesn't mean diddly. Once again, your answer to everything is raise taxes rather than cut back. As a wealthy physician, you probably ran your own household like that....need more goodies?....just charge your patients more (tax) and get the goodies. Is Stockman running for office or something? I guess you'll put him on a pedestal until he says something that you disagree with and then he will just be another nutty Republican again, huh?
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  3.    #583  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You were at Isle of Palms and didn't contact me for a beer???? I live in the town you had to go through to get to Isle of Palms, the place where the rich hang out and play. Of course, you are one of the rich, so it makes sense you would be hanging out there. I would have met you for a beer and watched the GA/FL game! Congrats on winning that one....I was actually pulling for the Gators for a change.

    You always say that about receiving Social Security or Medicare, to just refuse taking them. Tell you what, can you arrange for me to get what I paid into the system for them back with interest? Why would anyone who has been forced to pay for a benefit decline it? Now, if this was optional...and I still paid into the system....and complained, then you'd have a point. But unless you know how to waive off of these things then it would be really stupid to not accept what one has paid for.

    I did watch that 60 Minutes piece last night. That is his opinion and doesn't mean diddly. Once again, your answer to everything is raise taxes rather than cut back. As a wealthy physician, you probably ran your own household like that....need more goodies?....just charge your patients more (tax) and get the goodies. Is Stockman running for office or something? I guess you'll put him on a pedestal until he says something that you disagree with and then he will just be another nutty Republican again, huh?
    Assumptions are very frequent in your world, aren't they? "Rich" and "wealthy" are very relative terms. Let's just say the in-laws I was visiting are very well off, and they happen to be builders. The level of inaccuracy in what you write continues to be epic. Just charge my patients more? Right. You know that can't happen, right?

    If you truly believe in and are committed to your philosophy, you should have no problem refusing 1. to pay into SS and 2. to receive Medicare. If you don't like things the way they are, then by all means insist that your right wing nutjobs bring up repealing Social Security and Medicare in the house. Really, they are such failures and there's a wealth of money there than can go to corporate welfare. Please...urge them to do it. And you can set an example by refusing to participate.

    Stockman probably knows more about tax cuts than any economist alive, since he was the one that proposed them and implemented them for Reagan. Feel free to assume that you know much more than he does about them by dismissing what he says. Because he doesn't agree with your extensive knowledge base about the effect of tax cuts, then his opinion "doesn't mean diddly". You're hysterical.
  4. #584  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Assumptions are very frequent in your world, aren't they? "Rich" and "wealthy" are very relative terms. Let's just say the in-laws I was visiting are very well off, and they happen to be builders. The level of inaccuracy in what you write continues to be epic. Just charge my patients more? Right. You know that can't happen, right?
    Come on....we all know you doctors have ways to "game" the system and charge more. Stop acting like we are so naive. Doctors are quite good at the fraud game. Besides, you also know that you can charge more to those out of network.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    If you truly believe in and are committed to your philosophy, you should have no problem refusing 1. to pay into SS and 2. to receive Medicare. If you don't like things the way they are, then by all means insist that your right wing nutjobs bring up repealing Social Security and Medicare in the house. Really, they are such failures and there's a wealth of money there than can go to corporate welfare. Please...urge them to do it. And you can set an example by refusing to participate.
    Umm....you didn't explain how I could get my money back and I told you it would be stupid to not accept that which I have paid for and that which I had no choice in participating. However, I have said in here many times that I believe the starting age for Social Security needs to be delayed. I can not possibly know what age that needs to be, but if I have to wait until age 72, for example, that is what we need to do. That would not be changing those that currently are receiving benefits, but delaying it for those that are, say, under the age of 60 now? So I am willing to delay what I am owed. Since I can't opt out (and by that I mean, stop paying into the system), I at least want to receive something out of it and that means changing the payout periods. It might need to be 70...or maybe 74. I just don't know, but can we agree that it needs to be changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Stockman probably knows more about tax cuts than any economist alive, since he was the one that proposed them and implemented them for Reagan. Feel free to assume that you know much more than he does about them by dismissing what he says. Because he doesn't agree with your extensive knowledge base about the effect of tax cuts, then his opinion "doesn't mean diddly". You're hysterical.
    Funny...whenever I mention that Reagan cut taxes I am attacked that he actually raised taxes more than he lowered taxes. I disagree with that staement, but at least you now seem to agree that Reagan cut taxes. I appreciate your support of that! I never said I know more than Stockman, do you know more that Lindsay Graham (just one example) about issues? And yet you have no problem disagreeing with him. I can still disagree with someone's opinion, can't I? Another example of how liberals are fine with freedom of speech, as long as it doesn't disagree with their opinion.
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  5.    #585  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Come on....we all know you doctors have ways to "game" the system and charge more. Stop acting like we are so naive. Doctors are quite good at the fraud game. Besides, you also know that you can charge more to those out of network.
    Yeah, well, unlike a lot of private docs, I guess we just don't see many non-Medicare out of network patients.

    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post


    Funny...whenever I mention that Reagan cut taxes I am attacked that he actually raised taxes more than he lowered taxes. I disagree with that staement, but at least you now seem to agree that Reagan cut taxes. I appreciate your support of that! I never said I know more than Stockman, do you know more that Lindsay Graham (just one example) about issues? And yet you have no problem disagreeing with him. I can still disagree with someone's opinion, can't I? Another example of how liberals are fine with freedom of speech, as long as it doesn't disagree with their opinion.
    There are opinions based on politics and opinion based on knowledge. As he is not running for anything and is knowledgable, I am pretty sure I would believe Stockman more than Boehner....or Obama, for that matter.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #586  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    There are opinions based on politics and opinion based on knowledge. As he is not running for anything and is knowledgable, I am pretty sure I would believe Stockman more than Boehner....or Obama, for that matter.
    Pockycock. There are politicians who are knowlegeable, and knowledgeable people play politics all day long.

    And everyone has an opinion.

    It's not necessarily one or the other.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #587  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Pockycock. There are politicians who are knowlegeable, and knowledgeable people play politics all day long.

    And everyone has an opinion.

    It's not necessarily one or the other.
    Davidra only likes opinions that are in line with his. If you don't agree with him, you are just a dummy and should be quieted.

    I just found it funny that he promoted Stockman as someone who helped Reagan cut taxes, but when I commented on Reagan cutting taxes I was barraged with comments and links to refute that Reagan cut taxes. Funny how he used that point when it was convenient.
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  8.    #588  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Davidra only likes opinions that are in line with his. If you don't agree with him, you are just a dummy and should be quieted.

    There's a difference between being a dummy and just being wrong. You are not a dummy.
  9.    #589  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Pockycock. There are politicians who are knowlegeable, and knowledgeable people play politics all day long.

    And everyone has an opinion.

    It's not necessarily one or the other.
    There are politicians that are knowledgeable? Really? Would that include Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell? Or Sarah Palin? Or Alvin Greene?

    My guess is that you haven't watched the entire video. If you do, please tell me you if you think he's playing politics. Doesn't sound like it to me.
  10. #590  
    So what now? What can the Republicans do to fix the mess that obama and the libs put out there under the guise of health care reform?
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  11. #591  
    whatever they do, obama won't sign it.
  12. #592  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    whatever they do, obama won't sign it.
    Well, exactly my point. I know they can't repeal the bill until obama is back being a community organizer (which is really what he is, a community organizer, and a darn good one I might add), but can they make adjustments to it, tweak it? If obama vetoes any tweaks, maybe now there is enough support to overcome the veto? Again, not the whole bill, but just some of the many problems in the bill? And what's this I hear about just not funding it? How would that work?
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  13.    #593  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well, exactly my point. I know they can't repeal the bill until obama is back being a community organizer (which is really what he is, a community organizer, and a darn good one I might add), but can they make adjustments to it, tweak it? If obama vetoes any tweaks, maybe now there is enough support to overcome the veto? Again, not the whole bill, but just some of the many problems in the bill? And what's this I hear about just not funding it? How would that work?
    I would love for them to deny funding for the bill. By all means, remove coverage for children up to 26, pre-existing conditions....those things the republicans have already agreed they favor. I beg them to try. Unless they can break out the funding in sections, which I don't think they can, this will fail miserably.
  14. bugduk's Avatar
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    #594  
    If I want toothpaste, I can go to WalMart and get some for 85 cents (or a buck or two or three, depending on the brand). If the government took over the toothpaste industry in the name of people's dental health, the cheapest brand would cost $23 a tube, and half the time it wouldn't be there when I needed it. After a while, it would actually cost more than that to produce, and they would start losing money. So they would then offer subsidies and tax credits, and there would still be a shortage, but now the subsidies would add to the deficit and the national debt. Just because health insurance is expensive doesn't change this dynamic; you just have to scale up my example. If health care reform is ever going to work, proper market incentives have to be built in, and ObamaCare didn't do it.
  15. #595  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I would love for them to deny funding for the bill. By all means, remove coverage for children up to 26, pre-existing conditions....those things the republicans have already agreed they favor. I beg them to try. Unless they can break out the funding in sections, which I don't think they can, this will fail miserably.
    Not sure there is any Federal funding for requiring insurance companies to cover children under the age of 26 or to require insurance companies to waive pre-x for children or to require insurance companies to cover more preventive benefits at 100% and no co-pay. Are you saying that our tax dollars are going to insurance companies to fund these items? Seems like that cost is passed on to the insurance companies that are now passing them on to the consumer. Do you know something that I don't in regards to this? Please explain how the Federal government is funding this part of obama care. Thanks! It's a beautiful day in America, huh davidra?
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  16. #596  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugduk View Post
    If I want toothpaste, I can go to WalMart and get some for 85 cents (or a buck or two or three, depending on the brand). If the government took over the toothpaste industry in the name of people's dental health, the cheapest brand would cost $23 a tube, and half the time it wouldn't be there when I needed it. After a while, it would actually cost more than that to produce, and they would start losing money. So they would then offer subsidies and tax credits, and there would still be a shortage, but now the subsidies would add to the deficit and the national debt. Just because health insurance is expensive doesn't change this dynamic; you just have to scale up my example. If health care reform is ever going to work, proper market incentives have to be built in, and ObamaCare didn't do it.
    And then, the government would start to replace everyone's teeth under some new government program that is only needed because they up the managing of toothpaste and everyone's teeth are rotting because they can't get toothpaste. Yes, the government is really good at everything they do. Because, any problem can be solved by more government!
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  17. #597  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well, exactly my point. I know they can't repeal the bill until obama is back being a community organizer (which is really what he is, a community organizer, and a darn good one I might add), but can they make adjustments to it, tweak it? If obama vetoes any tweaks, maybe now there is enough support to overcome the veto? Again, not the whole bill, but just some of the many problems in the bill? And what's this I hear about just not funding it? How would that work?
    I think you're about to find out what it's like to not have the votes. Enjoy.
  18. #598  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugduk View Post
    If I want toothpaste, I can go to WalMart and get some for 85 cents (or a buck or two or three, depending on the brand). If the government took over the toothpaste industry in the name of people's dental health, the cheapest brand would cost $23 a tube, and half the time it wouldn't be there when I needed it. After a while, it would actually cost more than that to produce, and they would start losing money. So they would then offer subsidies and tax credits, and there would still be a shortage, but now the subsidies would add to the deficit and the national debt. Just because health insurance is expensive doesn't change this dynamic; you just have to scale up my example. If health care reform is ever going to work, proper market incentives have to be built in, and ObamaCare didn't do it.
    Yes, your point has been proven in every other developed democracy in the world many times over.

    Oh, wait . . . guess it hasn't.

    Well, I guess we have to rely on the ol' "America is exceptional" thing. America is certainly an exceptional country, and I love it dearly, but economics and human nature work here the same way they do everywhere else, and to think otherwise is delusional.
  19.    #599  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugduk View Post
    If I want toothpaste, I can go to WalMart and get some for 85 cents (or a buck or two or three, depending on the brand). If the government took over the toothpaste industry in the name of people's dental health, the cheapest brand would cost $23 a tube, and half the time it wouldn't be there when I needed it. After a while, it would actually cost more than that to produce, and they would start losing money. So they would then offer subsidies and tax credits, and there would still be a shortage, but now the subsidies would add to the deficit and the national debt. Just because health insurance is expensive doesn't change this dynamic; you just have to scale up my example. If health care reform is ever going to work, proper market incentives have to be built in, and ObamaCare didn't do it.
    Actually, Medicare is a very good example of why your initial comments are wrong. Medicare costs less than private care and is more highly valued by those that have it. Yes, the costs have increased over time, but those can be controlled by a variety of mechanisms (aggressively stopping fraud, decreasing reimbursements, limiting drug costs through negotiation). In terms of "proper market incentives", I would love to see any that will actually increase coverage to those that need it. I don't think they exist, and that's why a single payor plan is far preferable to what currently exists in the reform bill.
  20. #600  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Yes, your point has been proven in every other developed democracy in the world many times over.

    Oh, wait . . . guess it hasn't.

    Well, I guess we have to rely on the ol' "America is exceptional" thing. America is certainly an exceptional country, and I love it dearly, but economics and human nature work here the same way they do everywhere else, and to think otherwise is delusional.
    Yup....but you have to question the whole "America is exceptional" part when 350,000 liberals vote for Alvin Greene to be their representative. I mean seriously, go read up on this guy and you tell me how he was even elected to be the democrat nominee? Seriously. Obviously the people who voted him to be the nominee just voted for him because he had a "D" next to his name. Does this really bring us the best and the smartest to lead the country? I'm not talking about disagreeing with the differences between the two parties, I'm talking about electing someone who is so totally unqualified it would be funny if not sad. But, liberals elected him to be their candidate. So okay....they had the choice to vote for Greene, DeMint, a couple of other long shots, or no one. Well, I can understand a liberal not wanting to vote for DeMint....I understand that....but wouldn't you just vote for no one rather than Greene? What if something even crazier would have happened and Alvin Greene was going to Washington to vote on things for the WHOLE country? This is how we got obama. People weren't concerned with the most qualified, it was who made them "feel good" about their vote. It certainly wasn't based on obama's experience...he was hip...ran up steps...ran down steps...read speeches beautifully...and kept talking about bringing everyone together....and people ate that up. And now....people are over all that other carp and now see a guy who they probably like...but...well....he's just over his head. He's sitting in that car in the ditch....looking around....and has no idea how to get out of the car much less get it out of the ditch. So while I did see some people make good choices last night....there was still the votes that left me shaking my head. Reid? Pelosi? Frank? Boxer? Really?
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